A 1989 Vanwagon for your amusement

[nxski]

How will you be dealing with resistance in the system? I know this is a big issue with electric vehicles draining their batteries quickly. Also, these vans have tons of wind noise, is this a concern for you?

[teamtestbot]

The way I'm thinking of doing it is keeping the powertrain entirely in the rear and putting batteries where the engine was. It's a fairly sizeable cavity. The motor is only ~13" square, so I do not think stuffing it near the rear axle will be an issue. Even better is if I can find a beefy front wheel drive style transaxle such that the motor can sit sideways instead of at a T with the rear axle.

However, some issues I'm starting to think about as I stare deeper into the engine bay is the weight of the batteries. They're going to be over 1000 lb, and I somehow doubt the existing engine, transmission, and other parts are nearly that much, and it would make for poor weight distro and probably cause damage to the front suspension. A better option is probably to distribute the batteries under the vehicle floor in a long flat configuration leaving the engine bay mostly clear. Who knows - maybe a smaller diesel/CNG engine-generator will be stuffed in there as a range extender some day. Either way, I'm probably looking at adding 500-600lb at minimum with the amount of cells I *want* put in, which might be unacceptable. Do you have any recommended suspension upgrade paths?

All this is still up in the air - I have to have the powertrain dropped and the van on a lift to gauge what mounting points I already have.

I have machining facilities to adapt most things to most other things. I am a mechanical engineer by practice and degree, who also masquerades as an EE, primarily designing small (0-1kW) power electronics like motor drivers. For this project I'm planning on using a leftover 75kW Azure Force Drive inverter with matching Siemens motor, so there will not be custom inverters and whatnot.

[teamtestbot]

Hi nxski,

Yeah, this thing is not exactly a study in aerodynamic efficiency! I think I'm going to keep the gearing on the high ratio side to keep the final top speed near "modest highway". No need to gear for land speed records as that will just cause the motor to work harder against air resistance and kill my range.

Resistance isn't really a big concern so much as air drag and accessory power for EVs. You can take care of resistance by using bigger wires. The power lost to resistance in a big EV system can literally be 100x smaller than the amount needed to just cruise at 55mph.

[nxski]

I was referring more to resistance in the mechanical componants of the vehicle. I hear a lot of talk about adding thinner tires along with many other low resistance/friction componants.

I also know that items like the mirrors on electric cars can be a point of concern with regards to noise. I figure noise isn't something you're worried about though!?

[teamtestbot]

I see now. My bad - when I hear "resistance" without other descriptors I usually assume electrical. About the best you can do for mechanical resistance is switching to low rolling resistance tires and keeping them well-filled, I believe. Secondary benefits come from reducing the number of moving parts (e.g. direct drive instead of going through an existing transmission) and lubricating with oil bath instead of grease, though that could be hard to do with some parts and would require more extensive mods to the vehicle than I care to.

It's not going to be a world record fuel economy contest entry. I figure once it can move on its own, then I can focus on little improvements here and there; if noise does become a problem, I'll address it. Considering that one of the first upgrades I want to make is to fit some Fuso style mirrors...

[nxski]

I see now. My bad - when I hear "resistance" without other descriptors I usually assume electrical. About the best you can do for mechanical resistance is switching to low rolling resistance tires and keeping them well-filled, I believe. Secondary benefits come from reducing the number of moving parts (e.g. direct drive instead of going through an existing transmission) and lubricating with oil bath instead of grease, though that could be hard to do with some parts and would require more extensive mods to the vehicle than I care to.

It's not going to be a world record fuel economy contest entry. I figure once it can move on its own, then I can focus on little improvements here and there; if noise does become a problem, I'll address it. Considering that one of the first upgrades I want to make is to fit some Fuso style mirrors...

Awesome, I'm really interested to see how it comes together. If I can scrounge up some cash (quite a bit actually), I'll convert mine to hydrogen.

[teamtestbot]

How easy is it to foul plugs? I installed a new MAF, but am still getting non-starts. As I understand it, without airflow information the engine will run rich, and increase the chance of plug fouling. So, all the idling and driving I did without the MAF could have fouled the plugs. The symptom is that on cranking I am getting occasional pops from the engine, but generally no consistent behavior.

[teamtestbot]

A bit of news from the trenches.

A few days ago (before I got the replacement MAF, after the oil change) I decided to try and drive it around in the parking garage. Without the MAF connected, it did manage to start and idle (roughly, as consistent with before). And I managed to make it all the way to the opposite corner of the garage before it stalled and wouldn't start again! We had to muscle it back.

Luckily, it's on video for everyone's amusement. For clarity, this is the *second* start-run attempt of the night, and the engine was already somewhat warm. This becomes significant later.



Anyways, I got the replacement MAF today and installed it. Since the last post and now, I cleaned the spark plugs, and after some effort, it did start again. This time, I kept babying the engine for maybe 10 minutes, letting it idle and occasionally throttling up and holding it at 3-4K rpms. It's quite smooth above 2K or so, and there's nothing that to me sounds like it's about to grenade (though sitting next to it is still kind of thrilling). This time, I held my breath and waited for the garage's automatic vent fans to kick in - it wasn't dangerous by any means, but still noxious. No black or dark smoke was noted.

I'm starting to note a consistent symptom now, between several starts and runs. Cold starts, when it manages, are great. The idle begins around ~1000 rpm, which is a fast according to the shop manual. As the engine warms up, the idle becomes more and more unstable to the point where basically constant throttling is needed or the revs drop very low and the engine would stall. And finally, starting from hot is basically impossible (hence the pushing...)

The good news is, the ECU has cleared the MAF error code. The bad news is, it now thinks everything is dandy (no error code), but it's clearly not! On deck to check this weekend is fuel pressure at the rail (I bought a in-line pressure gauge) and just a verification of mechanical timing. I looked a little closer and hey, the timing belt cover does not need everything in front of it taken out beforehand.

Given that once it gets going and I keep it busy, it runs (unloaded, mind you) smoothly - could another sensor be at fault? Especially one that changes depending on hot or cold engine?

Edit: I did buy a new fuel filter a while ago and I think I'll pre-emptively swap that in tomorrow too. The one on there looks "original".

[Strada 92]

Maybe coolant temperature sensor?

[teamtestbot]

Alright, I'm kind of mystified as to what's going on now. Here's a quick video of the sound it's currently making.



It still sounds to me like the ECU is cycling through different fuel-air mixtures, but none of them can start the engine going. The times I have gotten it to start, it has seemingly run fine for a few minutes each time.

Current symptoms:

• (Some times) cold starts okay, runs reasonably well for a few minutes until the engine warms up, then idle becomes progressively unstable and engine is prone to stalling

• Displays that starting cyclic change in pitch when start is not successful

• When it does start and run, the exhaust does not appear to be smoky or black

List of things changed/checked:

• New air filter

• New mass air flow sensor (cleared ECU error code)

• New oil filter and oil

• New Fuel filter

• Presense of spark and order of spark

• Fuel pump functionality

List of things not yet checked/changed:

• Verification of fuel pressure

• Mechanical timing (pulley marks / distributor rotor)

• o2 sensor

I really think it's another sensor of some sort. If I had to bet, my money would be on the o2 since the stalling behavior is definitely tied to temperature... but that doesn't explain the non-starts.

[teamtestbot]

Think I just made a ton of extra work for myself. Forget everything written above...

I felt adventurous and decided to dig into the distributor and remove the front timing belt cover to verify the mechanical timing. The first thing I found was that the timing belt is in horrible shape:



Looks like at some point the tensioner pulley must have frozen and has just been sliding on the belt. The whole mess is also covered in oil, so there must be a leaky seal somewhere.

Since the engine didn't last stop in a convenient position, I used a socket wrench to turn the timing pulley slowly, watching the distributor. Immediately, the belt skips a few teeth. How many, I'm not sure.

Whatever the case is, it's clear I'm going to have to change that belt and tensioner (and associated hardware). For those of you who have done this - how messy is it going to be? I'm strongly under the impression that I have to drop the engine to do this.

Also, the distributor points weren't in spectacular shape either (so I think):



I do have a replacement cap *and* rotor, though there are more pressing issues at the moment...

[Yokohama]

Interesting equipment choice interesting.

As for the suspension, I know they make some alternative torsion bars. Most of them seem to be offered by Australian or British suppliers.

Since you don't have exhaust or a fuel tank, then you could make a way to hang the batteries in enclosures below the floor.

As for the engine weight, I wonder if just mounting the batteries as far forward as possible, but still behind the front suspension would work. Would that shift enough weight forward to compensate for the engine, but also keep enough of it in the rear to not overload the front?

I like the diesel-electric concept; this is very similar to the car offered by BYD in China.

As for the idle problem; I suspect the idle controller is going out. The one for a 4G64 truck is the same for all years that I know of.

As for the no start, it sounds like it could be lack of fuel. I would try to bypass the pump relay and run directly off battery to see if it runs and build pressure. If there is low or no pressure, then I would say the pump is dead or the pick-up screen could be blocked. These tanks can develop rust inside, so it is possible. I re-engineered my fuel system, to make it more serviceable.

The belt looks really bad; I would go onto ebay and find someone selling the Goodyear Gatorback timing belt kit. You should be able to get one for under $60 or so. Don't get the belt, get the kit as it comes with all the pulleys (good quality units), and the belts are really excellent. This is the one I used.

As for the procedure; as you know it must be done exactly as instructed. It any of the belts or tensioners is off at all the timing is off and the engine will not run right if at all. The Mitchell's books (the large ones that cover multiple years and makes). The van will be listed under the Chrysler/Dodge import section (the import books, not the domestic). Also, you will want download a copy of the Mitsubishi 4G64 FSM that cover the SOHC 4G64. You can find that on the web by search for the pdf copy. If you can't find the Mitchell's book, let me know, but many public libraries have them. You want the books not the on-line version.
You will have to remove the radiator, and I suggest cleaning and repainting it while it is out. You really just have to remove all the front stuff on the engine. Also, when everything is off, yes replace ALL THE SEALS for the silent shafts and the chankshaft. You will note that there are plugs that are removed on the side of the engine to hold the silent shafts stationary when removing/installing the cog bolts.
Also, clean all the timing components and the front engine area using chlorinated brake cleaner (not the non-chlorinated stuff that never works). You may also want to use a tooth brush and a plastic edge device to get the caked on stuff. By the time I was done the front of the engine and timing parts were clean enough to eat off of.

Also replace the water pump and water pump seal. Use spray type Copper Coat seal. I would put around 5+ layers of the spray on the water pump seal and then install on a super clean gasket surface (block side). The water pump is not expensive, and Advance Auto has them. Even though it is a different brand, it should be a GMB pump inside the box.

When installing the water pump I will say that you may also want to use gasket remover too.

Like I said the position of BOTH timing belts is super critical and so is getting the tensioners set!!!

[yojimbo]

I'm surprised it ran at all with the state of that cap.

[teamtestbot]

I know, right? I think now I understand why you just go ahead and take apart/clean/replace everything. All of my debugging so far was on incomplete information.

Bought some jackstands, pulley pullers, and other doodads today and am borrowing a friend's hydraulic jack. I'm fairly sure I can get the radiator and A/C condenser out, then I'll basically be staring at the timing belt cover.

[teamtestbot]

Based on my investigations, it looks like I might need to remove the AC condenser in addition to the radiator. It's a second radiator that's in front of the primary one. Yokohama, do you have a take on this? If removing the condenser is necessary to get to the belts, is it reasonable for me to do on my own or should I get it professionally drained?

I'm under the impression that just opening a tube would release a small cloud of R-12 which is probably not good for anyone.