Whipsaw 4x4 wknd overnight - wknd of Sept 10-12

[RichD]

There are places where you could just drive off into marsh or into the meadow. This is obviously frowned upon because unlike much of the lower mainland that grows year round, this alpine area has short growth windows, extreme weather, and is very fragile. In the 70s this area was a disaster from the offroaders. It has since recovered but even a little abuse can take a few seasons to recover.

Just because tracks lead off into a marshy area doesn't mean you should be there. Some people might not think that insect and plant life are important but they are missing the big picture.

There are also a number of parts of the trail where the ground, even if grassy, is quite wet and muddy underneath and vehicles have dug ruts. As people have navigated around the ruts, more ruts have formed. Sometimes you can't get out of the mud and have to go through. These are short sections that usually dry up within 50-100 feet. Its effectively part of the road. Sometimes its fun to take the more difficult wet bit just cause its there, but this is not to say you should make a bigger mess of it. One could argue this is trail abuse; I am not sure how much of a difference it makes one way or another.

Usually when it comes to wet and rutty bits, you ride on the high points or follow the ruts - whichever is the path of least resistance. In the photo you saw in thread, I managed to slide off the high points and then get stuck in such a way that I couldn't recover. It looks like I'm in meadow but I'm actually in a 16-20 foot bit that lies between two different paths around it. None are evident "road" per se; it was just a clearing with a lot of mud and some patchy grass and trees in the middle. I chose the hard way for fun and I got stuck. I didn't proceed to dig it up and try to get out on my own - I asked for a pull. We did this from the front which was technically harder (tree in the way) because it did the least amount of damage to the trail. It was obviously dumb to go there but it wasn't causing any new damage or going off-trail.

My point is not to split hairs about what was or wasn't trail abuse. We were on the trail so we had impact. We went in there with no real experience but a high degree of respect and care. If there is anything we could improve next time, we'd appreciate the coaching from the more experienced offroaders. To be honest I felt more guilty about not stopping to pick up every single can or piece of trash I saw at the side of the road. I was frustrated by the litter; there is no excuse for it.

That said, IMO this kind of aggressive approach from the 4WDABC on the forum diminishes the credibility of not only the author but the club he represents. I think that the double-barrel metaphor is appropriate because the criticism was about as specific and accurate as a shotgun blast full of buckshot. I've gone from a desire to participate and donate to a sense of distaste. And frankly I resent the pall of negativity that his post put on our thread and the event.

[tonydca]

Best. Camping trip. Ever!

Hats off to the whole gang for setting up and running such a great trip.

As the n00biest possible off-road driver, I have to encourage anyone who, like me, drives 97% in an urban environment to come along on a trip like this with your vehicle.

I spent the first 20+ yrs of my driving career (all in normal road cars) dutifully avoiding driving over any obstacle more than 2 inches high if I could help it - as my first day of driving the trail can attest! Once you realize that you can actually drive your tires effortlessly over things that might damage/cripple mere mortal machines, a whole new world of fun opens right up!

There is simply no better way to get a feel for what your vehicle can do, and being able to do so around knowledgable folks with capable machinery to get you unstuck (a few times!) is a huge confidence booster. So if you're on the fence about it, you've *got* to give it a try!

Finally, I have no better pics to add than the ones already posted, but I have to give a huge thanks also to Rich, Jesse, David, Felix, and Antoine for being so patient with Deanne, me and especially my boys, who can not stop talking about the weekend!

Oh yeah, and the dog still smells lemony-sweet!

Tony.

[RichD]

I have to say that Tony, Deanna and the kids really were the heart of the group. We united around them and bringing them through the trail safely and happily became the unspoken mission statement of the whole weekend. This made for a terrific group dynamic and an experience we'll remember for years to come.

[240 Jordy]

I sincerely apologize to everyone if I came across in a negative or stern manner or if you feel I was way out of line coming on your thread and going off like I did. That was not my intent, I was only trying to point out that some of the pictures many get some negative feedback or give people the wrong impression.

I’m really not trying to be the "Whipsaw Police" here, just trying to give some friendly advice based on my opinions and experience. As I live close to the trail I due tend to try and keep an eye on it. Is that so wrong?

Also to let everyone know the Roverlanders and 4WDABC have put up signs in the past, I'm sure you saw some of them along the route, unfortunately over the years some disrespecting people have chosen to drive over them, pull them out and even burn them. Perhaps trying again and adding some new ones isn't a bad idea. I'm only a member of the association and your opinions as such should not be based on your opinions of what you think of me.

I do what we can for cleaning up along the trails at all times and I'll apologize if we missed some trash and it was left behind for your group to pick up. You were probably out of your vehicles more than us and were able to spot the litter a bit easier.

Again I apologize for getting anyone upset or frustrated about my posts. I did not sign up on here to wave around my inflated sense of authority as I have no more authority on these issues then any of you do. I signed up prior to the run because I've always liked the Delicas and when I heard you guys were going on the Whipsaw I thought it would be cool to meet some of you and read the trip report.

I do hope to meet most of you again on some other trails.

[delicat]

Hey Jordy,

It's all good! As I already mentioned, I had a good impression when I met you and can understand how you'd want to protect your backyard... I'd do the same! We only got concerned that we might get a bad rep for things we don't deserve.

It's been an amazing weekend and can't wait to do it again! Next time we'll send you an invite to ride shotgun with one of us in a Delica... quite different than a monster Suburban!

And to keep it fun, a few more pictures...

Wrong way.jpg (95.57 KiB) Viewed 7923 times

Home sweet home.jpg (65.68 KiB) Viewed 7924 times

Ring of fire.jpg (53.6 KiB) Viewed 7923 times

Time to go down.jpg (85.4 KiB) Viewed 7924 times

Alpine view.jpg (104.43 KiB) Viewed 7868 times

David

[RichD]

I sincerely apologize

Cheers Jordy. I appreciate your warm apology but especially I think your heart is in the right place (protect the mountains). I hope you realize we're right there with you. Its our backyard too (I consider the coast the front yard lol).

You probably noticed that I'm pretty blunt and David has a more diplomatic approach. That's cause I work with machines all day, and he works with people. But I'm also fiercely defensive of our little community. As I said above, I think that our ethics regarding trail use are aligned here. I tried to reach out to the Roverlanders and would have gladly helped out with signs and was looking for some guidance regarding trail use, etc. I'm disappointed that they didn't respond.

I agree with David, we would enjoy offroading with you in the future. Maybe you could teach us a few things.

I am curious about these forum posts that are so critical of us? I spent an hour googling and came up with bupkis. The only post was one you made on BC4x4 and it was flattering toward our group.

[Jaz]

Jordy,

Is there any downloadable PDF map? One that clearly states where is on and off trail? Perhaps that would be a good way to go, that way folks like these lovely Delica people can get the right idea from the get-go. I'm sure it wouldn't take too long on Google Maps, or even a pen on a backroads map and scan that in.

Just a thought :)

J

[RichD]

Is there any downloadable PDF map? One that clearly states where is on and off trail? Perhaps that would be a good way to go, that way folks like these lovely Delica people can get the right idea from the get-go. I'm sure it wouldn't take too long on Google Maps, or even a pen on a backroads map and scan that in.

We had a gps map of the entire trail, turn by turn. We were on the road the whole time. That's not the issue.

As I stated above, there are many opportunities where the road splits into informal diversions - often a choice between a muddier "hard way" and an "easy way". Its not always clear whether these are intentional or cause unnecessary impact. Nobody has indicated either way. The only photos on this thread that support "off trail" accusations were in fact within these areas. We have more coverage that puts the photos in context, but since no specific accusations have been made and we haven't seen the other forum posts... we can't respond.

As with many other trail systems, you expect that the maintainers will block off a path if its being decommissioned or considered off-trail. No such signs existed for the splits in the trail. There were signs in obvious bogging areas that were out of bounds, and we did not contravene these indications that I saw.

The one incident that we have discussed after Jordy's comments and considered "could we have done better?" was the kamikaze drive off the side of that hill by the Safaris. In hindsight, climbing that hill, even though there is a road, might have been off-trail.

Our intentions were to tread lightly, and I think we'll improve upon our actions next time as we gain better experience and perspective. We need to make sure that the 4x4 clubs know that we Delicans also respect and care for the land, that we have a right to use just as much as they do, and want to be a positive force.

[jessef]

More pictures !

[elbosque]

While I agree with Jordy, it is because I would like these trails to stay as nice for everyone for as long as possible.

However, it may not be long before it becomes a super highway in there and the alpine is ripped up for a mine. The area is not a park. Heritage trails also have no protection. Great swaths of the Hudson Bay trail and the Engineers trail disappeared many years ago to large cut blocks. Load Stone has been slated for an open pit mine off and on for 30-40 years. There are also numerous other mineral claims in the area. Eventually, they will go ahead and the Whipsaw trail as we know it will be gone. So, enjoy it while you can. If you want fun hills, then try some of the power line and gas line trails in the Princeton area. Even Baldy mountain - just East of Princeton - has some nice hill climbs. Just don't roll. It's a long way to the bottom.

[Spade J]

"to boldly go where no Delica has gone before."

I am so envy of you guys *hand clapping*

Any more pictures?