Delica cold start problems, if not glow plugs then what else?

[AKcub]

My ’92 Starwagon hates the cold! I have gone through the obvious on the glow plug side of things and am about 90% convinced my problem is not with the glow plugs.
(The van was converted to a manual GP setup before I purchased it) Some of the troubleshooting I have done on the GP’s includes- replacing glow plugs, measuring glow plug resistance, measuring bus voltage before and during glow plug activation, and there is a very marked difference between a cold start with glow plugs and without.
Last night in unusually cold weather for the Seattle area I couldn’t get the van started. It would fire and not catch. The not starting process was accompanied by a bunch of white smoke. The normal cold start in warmer temps (50 degrees F on up) is the same with about 30 seconds of white fuel smelling smoke and then it runs great. Once the engine is started it runs well. Subsequent starts on a warm engine are normal. I don’t have any visible exhaust on acceleration or under load. FWIW, nothing about the smell of the exhaust raises any alarm with me- normal diesel exhaust smell. The cold start exhaust doesn’t have any smell besides being rich/incomplete combustion. Also, if I run the preheater it rolls off the starter onto idle like magic.
The van is in the Seattle area and I am having a hard time finding a diesel shop that is both interested in working on the Deli AND that comes across as having the technical knowledge to work on the van.
Finally to my question(s):
Can anyone recommend a Deli savvy shop in the Seattle area? If not Seattle, then the Vancouver area?
Do any of the symptoms listed above seem indicative of a particular failure to this knowledge base of people? IP timing? Air leak upstream of IP?

Any help or further troubleshooting advice would be great.

Scott
Also fwiw, I am a longtime diesel owner/operator and have a background in small aircraft maintenance. The Deli is about 1400 miles from my shop...

[Growlerbearnz]

The only other thing *I* can think of that would cause those symptoms is a lack of compression. You'll need a diesel engine compression tester and whatever adaptor fits in the glowplug holes (Harbor Freight to the rescue: http://www.harborfreight.com/20-piece-d ... 93644.html). Standard is 440psi, the lower limit is 320psi.

The 4D56 workshop manual (the one with better on-vehicle service procedures) shows how it's done on page 11B-13.

As for finding a workshop- a devious person might ask if they'd work on a Dodge Ram 50 engine, and then turn up with the Delica.

[msimps]

My ’92 Starwagon hates the cold! I have gone through the obvious on the glow plug side of things and am about 90% convinced my problem is not with the glow plugs.
(The van was converted to a manual GP setup before I purchased it) Some of the troubleshooting I have done on the GP’s includes- replacing glow plugs, measuring glow plug resistance, measuring bus voltage before and during glow plug activation, and there is a very marked difference between a cold start with glow plugs and without.
Last night in unusually cold weather for the Seattle area I couldn’t get the van started. It would fire and not catch. The not starting process was accompanied by a bunch of white smoke. The normal cold start in warmer temps (50 degrees F on up) is the same with about 30 seconds of white fuel smelling smoke and then it runs great. Once the engine is started it runs well. Subsequent starts on a warm engine are normal. I don’t have any visible exhaust on acceleration or under load. FWIW, nothing about the smell of the exhaust raises any alarm with me- normal diesel exhaust smell. The cold start exhaust doesn’t have any smell besides being rich/incomplete combustion. Also, if I run the preheater it rolls off the starter onto idle like magic.
The van is in the Seattle area and I am having a hard time finding a diesel shop that is both interested in working on the Deli AND that comes across as having the technical knowledge to work on the van.
Finally to my question(s):
Can anyone recommend a Deli savvy shop in the Seattle area? If not Seattle, then the Vancouver area?
Do any of the symptoms listed above seem indicative of a particular failure to this knowledge base of people? IP timing? Air leak upstream of IP?

Any help or further troubleshooting advice would be great.

Scott
Also fwiw, I am a longtime diesel owner/operator and have a background in small aircraft maintenance. The Deli is about 1400 miles from my shop...

I have similar issues. About to test my glowplugs and bus. Bought a second set in case. I find starting better with my manual system after powering the glowplugs much longer than I'm comfortable with (over 10s) but I'm pretty sure I'm burning them out when I do that.

If in the Vancouver area your best bet is CVI or Rising Sun. I've had good experiences with both and each specializes in Delicas.

If you find a solution keep me updated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sk66]

I don't know why, but the owner's manual says that cold weather starts should be done with the accelerator pedal fully depressed. It's currently at freezing here and my 2.5TD starts w/o depressing the pedal.

[sk66]

I find starting better with my manual system after powering the glowplugs much longer than I'm comfortable with (over 10s) but I'm pretty sure I'm burning them out when I do that.

I had a similar issue with the 6v "quick glow" system and the manual glow sw connected to the 6v solenoid... I would have to hold it for almost a minute in freezing temps. Moved it over to the 12v solenoid and it now takes about 8 seconds max (and a bit of manual cycling of the glow plugs until it warms up a bit).

[AKcub]

Thanks Growler, this will be a good excuse to buy another tool. Based on changing the glowplugs it looks like access for a compression check will be pretty quick. While I am in there I am going to change the fuel filter and look at the finger screen just before the banjo fitting going to the IP. It will be a good Sunday project.

Scott

The only other thing *I* can think of that would cause those symptoms is a lack of compression. You'll need a diesel engine compression tester and whatever adaptor fits in the glowplug holes (Harbor Freight to the rescue: http://www.harborfreight.com/20-piece-d ... 93644.html). Standard is 440psi, the lower limit is 320psi.

The 4D56 workshop manual (the one with better on-vehicle service procedures) shows how it's done on page 11B-13.

As for finding a workshop- a devious person might ask if they'd work on a Dodge Ram 50 engine, and then turn up with the Delica.

[AKcub]

Here are some notes from my gp troubleshooting this summer:
The year old plugs were the 6 volt style, even though the ECU has been bypassed. I replaced them with HKT 11 volt plugs.
I took some measurements before removing the old plugs and the 6 volt plugs all ohmed out at about 1.3 ohms. My bus bar voltage was right at 9.7 volts with the glowplug button pushed. After the new glowplugs were installed (they all ohmed out at about 1.3 ohms as well before install) my bus bar voltage jumped to 10.7 volts. Still seemed low so I checked each plug individually from battery to plug and they showed battery voltage (13.3 volts).
The lead running from the switch to the ECU is a piece of primary wire (16 gage), I'm pretty sure it's only carrying power to the ECU to turn the solenoid on that gives power to the glowplugs or I would suspect that it's causing the voltage drop- Is that a correct assumption

I have a hunch that if the gp's are the problem it is a current issue. I haven't taken the time to double check the installation of the gp bypass button to see if it was done correctly but if this turned out to be the problem it would make sense as from what I can tell I don't seem to be getting enough heat from the plugs. While I have them out this weekend to do a compression check I will run straight 12v power to them on the bench to see what happens. I thought I did that this summer but can't remember now.

Now to dig out a schematic and see how the gp bypass should be wired... If anyone has a link to the bypass process or the associated schematics for a '92 L300 please share.

I have been to Rising Sun, Steven and his son are great. Steven has been texting info directly trying to help. It's a 2 hour drive to YVR and trying to convince the family that WE need to go to Vancouver to work on the Deli can be a challenging argument... I want to check out the CVI gang just to have another Deli repair option up there in case RSI is booked.

Thanks,

Scott

I have similar issues. About to test my glowplugs and bus. Bought a second set in case. I find starting better with my manual system after powering the glowplugs much longer than I'm comfortable with (over 10s) but I'm pretty sure I'm burning them out when I do that.

If in the Vancouver area your best bet is CVI or Rising Sun. I've had good experiences with both and each specializes in Delicas.

If you find a solution keep me updated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Growlerbearnz]

Now to dig out a schematic and see how the gp bypass should be wired... If anyone has a link to the bypass process or the associated schematics for a '92 L300 please share.

CRW_1754.jpg (45.45 KiB) Viewed 8482 times

Sorry about the crappy picture...

Relays 1 and 2 are the glow plug relays. Relay 2 sends 12V directly to the glow plugs to heat them up super quickly, relay 1 sends power through the resistor pack (marked "?") to run the glowplugs gently once the engine's running.

Your manual switch should be connected to terminal E (the spade terminal) to switch on the fast warmup, 12V relay. It's possible your switch is connected to the 6V relay rather than the 12V relay- have a look and see, and if it's connected to the ring terminal B move it over to E.

Don't expect to be able to tell which relay is active by measuring the voltage on the bus bar- the voltage you see depends on the current the glowplugs are drawing. They draw a huge amount of power at first, then less as they heat up.

Oh and item 3 is the starter relay. Ignore.

[AKcub]

Perfect!

That saves me a bunch of manual study. It would be nice if it was as simple as having the manual switch on the 6v solenoid.

I hope to mess around with it tomorrow.


Thanks for the info

Now to dig out a schematic and see how the gp bypass should be wired... If anyone has a link to the bypass process or the associated schematics for a '92 L300 please share.

CRW_1754.jpg

Sorry about the crappy picture...

Relays 1 and 2 are the glow plug relays. Relay 2 sends 12V directly to the glow plugs to heat them up super quickly, relay 1 sends power through the resistor pack (marked "?") to run the glowplugs gently once the engine's running.

Your manual switch should be connected to terminal E (the spade terminal) to switch on the fast warmup, 12V relay. It's possible your switch is connected to the 6V relay rather than the 12V relay- have a look and see, and if it's connected to the ring terminal B move it over to E.

Don't expect to be able to tell which relay is active by measuring the voltage on the bus bar- the voltage you see depends on the current the glowplugs are drawing. They draw a huge amount of power at first, then less as they heat up.

Oh and item 3 is the starter relay. Ignore.

[ynwa]

Hey, classic issue so it seems. I have the same terrible cold starts. Just to confirm, with the manual setup, all we want to do is drop the switch along the signal wire from ports B OR E? Should we have a fusible link in the way? 10A?

Also, to add to this, my relays go mental after the van is warmed up. Rapid fire clicking, nothing sequential, just random on/off in a beserker fashion. I just replaced the temp sensor. Any thoughts on the epileptic glow system?

Thanks!!

[Growlerbearnz]

Just to confirm, with the manual setup, all we want to do is drop the switch along the signal wire from ports B OR E? Should we have a fusible link in the way? 10A?

Spade terminal E is the one you want*. Connect your manual pushbutton to that terminal instead of the original wire. That'll feed 12V to the glowplugs when you push the button. The power to your pushbutton should be fused- either add an inline fuse (10A should be fine), or tap into a circuit on the back of the fusebox- fuse 17 or 18 (heated seats, if you have them) are powered when the ignition is on.

Also, to add to this, my relays go mental after the van is warmed up. Rapid fire clicking, nothing sequential, just random on/off in a beserker fashion. I just replaced the temp sensor. Any thoughts on the epileptic glow system?

If you've replaced the temperature sensor and it's still mental, it's time to open up the ECU and look for damaged components and/or traces. They're old technology and completely rebuildable by an amateur with a soldering iron.


*Clarified from my earlier post where I couldn't recall which relay was the 12V one.

[AKcub]

Growler,
Thanks for the update. I'm headed to van to check out the solenoid signal line right now.

Just so I understand the system- On a manual gp setup there is no need for the 6v solenoid?

Scott

Edit- manual gp signal wire is connected to correct (inboard) relay...

[Growlerbearnz]

Growler,
Just so I understand the system- On a manual gp setup there is no need for the 6v solenoid?

Correct. It'll just behave like a regular one-shot glow system, without the additional gentle heat to ease the first minute of running. If you wanted to get really fancy you could add a second manual switch which operated the 6V relay, and then hold that down until the engine runs properly- but if you're going to that level of insanity you might as well just repair the ECU.

Edit- manual gp signal wire is connected to correct (inboard) relay...

Bugger. I'd be checking the compression next, and then finally the injectors' spray pattern. And then I'd run out of ideas.

[sk66]

I found a great resource for 6v quick glow controller information... and if you have trouble fixing it yourself Daniel can do it for a reasonable fee.

http://www.w1ngselectronics.com/index.p ... glow-timer

[sk66]

Also, to add to this, my relays go mental after the van is warmed up. Rapid fire clicking, nothing sequential, just random on/off in a beserker fashion. I just replaced the temp sensor. Any thoughts on the epileptic glow system?

If it is non-functional and bypassed I would disconnect it.