Need your help diagnosing something:

[CREGAN]

I have read up and done my research on cold starts but I am looking for some opinions to help me diagnose the strange behavior I am getting from my van.

I have noticed that I only get really nice clean starts when it is plugged in. If it is not it will burp and sputter and puff out the occasional toot of smoke for a minute or so until I can raise the idle a bit. If I put my foot down on the peddle too quick it will drop in idle and puff out a large cloud of smoke before finally settling in to the normal. I have my extension cord on a timer and it warms it from 6 until 10 every morning. It is getting kind of annoying because if I start it after this time, at any time of the day it will act up. Even if I have had it running already earlier in the day and not driven it for a few hours, it will burp and fart out puffs of smoke and basically look and sound like a terd. But once I get it running and do some running around I can shut it off, go in and do what I have to do and come out and it will start fine because the engine is still at operating temperature. It was plus 15 here this morning when I got in and it had to be plugged in. Doesn't seem right.

I am wondering if this is a case of needing new glow plugs or maybe something else. My plugs cycle properly but even when I cycle them 2 or 3 times it will still do this. I just replaced them last year on October 20th with some Hyundai plugs. I never had this problem until about a month or two ago.

Any suggestions, personal experience, hypothesis?

Craig

[Luna-Sea]

Hey,
Doing a load test on your batteries/testing charging system might help
eliminate some variables.
There is a sweet one at princess auto on
Sale right now that will do a load test as well
As diagnose starting/charging system too.
I have a slow electrical drain on our 92delicas Pajero
That will tell me its time to hook my charger up to the
batteries.
It will do this by starting fine (starter strong ect.,)I but
Then putting out more black smoke during warm up which
Eventually turn gray then white than dissapear.
this sequence can be speed up somewhat by raising the idle. My guess is the high idle increases the amps (by spinning the alternator faster) as well as increasing the engine strokes thereby speeding the warm up by generating more combustion heat ect.
If the Pajero's batteries are all nicely charged the
start up is pretty nice, very little black smoke and a more
rapid cycling of the glow plug system.
(Quite a bit quieter an operation in a L400)
Once you with all certainty have eliminated you batteries/ alternator/ connections I would go looking at your
glow plugs perhaps.

Hopefully others will chime in too with their thoughts
Or links to other threads with info.

Good Luck!

[tonydca]

Consistent miss? (chug-chug-chug-chug) or random? (chug-chuggity-chuggity-chug-chug-chugitty-chug-chuggity)

If the former, I'd suspect glowplug/busbar

If the latter, could be battery/alternator, air leak/IP seal (unless it always starts smoothly when plugged in, even after left for a few days)

[CREGAN]

Yeah it is more of a random miss. It only happens for a little while until I can get the idle up to about 1200. It starts at 800rpm. I had all the IP seals re-done last November and since then it runs like a champ (compared to before they were done). The wierd part is the plugging in thing. It starts consistently and very smooth when it is plugged in, after any amount of time (hours, days, etc) but when it is not plugged in it starts consistently rough. Does the fact that it is plugged in have anything to do with raising the temp making it easier for the glow plugs to do their job?

I am planning on driving it out to the coast in August and I think I am going to try to book it in at Coombs for a tune up. I would like to try to solve this on my own though before the trip.

Craig

[psilosin]

Thats pretty much the exact symptoms mine had once temps were below 10oC. Smooth as silk if plugged it but increasingly cranky as temps decreased from a mild hiccup at 10oC to a bronco ride at 4oC to no start below 0oC if not plugged in. In my case the glow plug relay was toast so i was always starting without any glow plug help at all. Have you checked the relay?

[Luna-Sea]

Does the fact that it is plugged in have anything to do with raising the temp making it easier for the glow plugs to do their job?

Yes. Like psilosin mentioned it is possible they are not working properly or at all.

Plugging in a block heater means a Warmer engine that will not leech away combustion heat to the block ect. Giving you a better(More complete burn) sooner.(less smoke)
The glow plugs dont have to work as long or as hard or at allin some cases.


I still say try charging up your batteries ,glow plugs use alot of juice (amps).



Right On!

[tonydca]

Def sounding more like the glow plugs/system. Are you still hearing the relay "Click......Clunk" when you start cold? (ie plugged in but not warmed up to operating temperature)

If so, could still check relay continuity/operation and busbar/cabling connections. A random misfiring seems to point to something systemic, rather than an individual plug.

Luna-Seas battery check is a good idea too; altho' if the starter turns over lively I'm thinking your battery has enough juice to fire up the glowplugs.

[CREGAN]

Psilosin reminded me of the thread a while ago about the rough start he was having.

I watched the 2 videos of yours and it is definately not like the second one with the start-up at -4. There is no constant cranking and copius amounts of smoke coming out. It is kind of lilke the first video at +8 but it turns over and starts instantly. Then it will buck a little at random times and puff out some smoke. If I let it sit and buck and fart it will eventually even out to normal idle. If I put my foot down to ease it to a higher rev it will buck really hard and spit out some large puffs. Here is your link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezlizkHZZgU

When I turn on the van I always wait for the second click to start it up. I wonder if it is the glow plug relay. I don't think it is air getting into the system, and I don't think it is not getting enough juice because it does fire right up (no cranking) when I turn the key. I have dual batteries in it and although they haven't been changed (still Japanese batteries) they have been working good. How do I test this relay?

Craig

[tonydca]

If it's like any other relay, it'll likely have 4 wires to it;

A skinny pair that controls a coil inside, turning the relay on and off, and

A fatter pair that is for the actual work; one will come from the battery and the other will go to the glowplug busbar.

If you are hearing the Click-Clunk when you turn on the ignition, then the coil (skinny pair) is at least connected up properly and trying to do its job.

So get a voltmeter and disconnect the fat pair of wires and measure across the terminals to which they were attached. With the ignition off, the resistance between the fat-pair terminals should be infinity (open circuit)

Get your banke..., uh - wife, to turn the ignition to On (without starting it); when the relay clicks in, the resistance between the fat terminals should drop to basically zero.

[Luna-Sea]

Hey,
Search the threads a bit there are many many threads
on the topic.
http://www.delica.ca/forum/norther-onta ... 10478.html
Partway down there is a sweet write up by Cristine
(Tardisdeli).
I think they are trouble shooting an L300
But most of the concepts should hold true for you.

Original Japanese batteries eh?
Our Pajero will turn the starter just fine but
Not have a tidy warm up if the charge is down.(Sitting
a few days)
You will not see this on a voltmeter, its has the volts just not the amps.

Good Luck

[psilosin]

Testing the L400 glow relay is easy.

Key Points:
-The relay has two thick power posts (one is hot always, other is hot when relay active) and one male spade connector that is where the relay trigger wire connects.
- A thick wire runs from the small fuse panel at your battery (80amp) to one of the thick posts on teh relay...this will be the hot always henceforth known as Post1.
- Another thick wire will run from the other thick relay post to teh glow bus bar. This is the hot on active henceforth known as Post2.
- Thin wire connected to the spade terminal. This is the low amp wire that triggers teh relay. Should keep the relay active for ~6 seconds after turning key to ON, then up to another 2minutes after vehicle has started.

Test1: Vehicle off. Voltmeter black probe on battery negative. Red probe on relay Post1. Should give 12V+. If not check teh fuse, if dead replace and retest. If passes you know the relay is getting power.

Test2: Handy to have a helper but easy enough to do solo. Vehicle off. Voltmeter black probe on battery negative, red probe on Post2. Should read 0V. Now turn key to ON, voltmeter should read 12V+ for ~6 seconds then back to 0V. If passes then your relay is working real fine man you dig. If it stays at 0V when key turned to ON...then you have a problem and need to know if its teh relay itself (most likely) or ECU/trigger wire (not likely).

Test3: Verify relay is dead: Vehicle off. Disconnect trigger wire from relay. Make your own direct trigger wire from battery positive to relay trigger post. Voltmeter hooked up like in Test2 to Post2. As soon as you touch trigger to relay trigger post the voltage reading should be 12V+. If not you have verified that the relay is toast and can either rebuild it for $0 and 20min time (search for my post on rebuilding L400 Glow Relay) or buy a new one $150+. If passes then you head into the ass pain zone of test4.

*I think its worth the time to try and rebuild if you have basic soldering skillz.

**If you remove teh relay to replace/rebuild MAKE SURE YOU DISCONNECT BATTERIES FIRST...the relay is located in a very awkward spot behind the fuel filter and you WILL bump the body with your tools, if battery connected you will get zapped. And since it is so awkward you will be already be swearing and screaming in anger so noone will think anything of the screams of agony from being electrocuted and will not rescue you....

Test4: Make sure ECU/Trigger wire functioning test: Vehicle off. Trigger wire disconnected. Stick red probe into the trigger wire connector, black on battery negative. Turn key to ON...voltmeter should read 12V+. If fails then ECU is flakey or trigger wire broken somewhere etc.

Hope that help man.