Sulphur Additives

[ghmorris]

for you who has the diesel leaking on the driveway, check the fuel filter , it could be loose or your pump is leaking , either one you can see whats wet when you lift the engine cover under the passenger seat,
FOR those looking for Lubricant for your injection pump, try the Racor fuel additive I cant keep enough of it in stock, that and you are also forgetting to add your Biocide, to kill the bacteria in the fuel that grows from any condinsation build up, LIKE we all get lining the fuel tank when the tank is left at night and the warm fuel cools.
I sell it and so do many other places, but its important so even if you dont get it from me, get it from somewhere.
Noel

With respect, biocide is primarily for longer term storage of diesel or similar oils. Most of us don't tend to keep the same tank of diesel in our vehicles for long enough to cause trouble. Bear in mind that home heating oil is very similar in compostion to diesel, and you don't generally hear about people rushing out to buy biocide for it, and home heating oil is stored for much longer periods. If you have a cite for the compelling need for biocide I would love to see it.

On top of that, using biocide indescriminately is not very green. This is really nasty stuff, its designed to kill things.

I have had to use a biocide in the past to help stamp out a rampant algae problem on my boat in Florida, but that was my own damn fault for letting six hundred gallons of diesel sit uncirculated for six months in 85 percent humidity and 30*C weather.

For those interested in better filtration (always a good idea with diesel engines), a google for Racor marine diesel filtration systems brings some interesting results. I'm used to parallel Racor filters that you can switch between without interrupting flow or introducing air into your fuel lines. Costs a bit to implement but works really well.

George

[Hankster]

I have been adding 1 liter of canola oil every fuel up in my fish boat for years, she loves it. 1 liter to every 350 liters of diesel or there about's

[EnviroImports.com]

Well I dont have a web site to show you the reasons for biocide, but I have had entire fuel systems, Tank, Lines, Injection pump and injectors , destroyed from the bacteria, in my western star the cost was over $4000 to replace and rebuild the system, My smart car #4 in the city had in writing that NO fuel additives were allowed to be used and 3 point has allready completly replace my fuel system AND paid over $500 tow bill from Pt Albernie to Victoria because Diesel bacteria took out the fuel system. and now recomends I use biocide,
it comes down to this, One bottle is $30 and lasts you 16 months, you only put in one ounce a month to wipe your entire fuel system, you dont need it every fill up or anything like that so I'm pretty happy to have a biocide KILL everything in my fuel , Im not trying to grow an ecco system in my fuel tank, so if bacteria grows, I want it to die, not make it feel welcome because its alive.

No one says you have to use biocide, but you will also only have your self to blame and no one else when your system needs to be replaced and you are looking at bringing a new one in from Japan, so you can save $30 over 16 months.

If you dont think you get enough condinsation in your fuel to grow bacteria, go talk to a diesel mechanic, no not a regular mechanic at your shop on the corner, talk to the guys that work on diesel trucks all day long and ask how much it costs to re-do a fuel system.


I also used Vegie oil, like canola in my fuel, and have for many many years, but mostly in the summer. its great stuff, natural and lubricates well, but dont use to much of it.

[ghmorris]

Ok, occasional use of biocide is fine if you are dealing with fuel that is sitting around for long periods. I mis-read your original post to advocate biocide in each tank.

I have a bigger problem with "taking out an entire fuel system" from algae growth. That's what filters are for. If your filtration is inadequate, fix it. Much cheaper than replacing IPs and injectors for example.

I'm thinking a Racors with water sep is going to be a cheap investment... Something like this: http://item.express.ebay.com/RACOR-120- ... xpressItem

George

[EnviroImports.com]

I think you really are missing the point, its not a matter of IF you have bacteria, its How much you have, even a vehicle that is on its first tank of fuel you have bacteria, Its bacteria not a 10micron piece of rust, and your fuel filter stops particals that are 10-15 microns, Its like haveing a blood disease in your body, once its in the fuel, it spreads, you get bacteria with every single fueling from the gas station, it is not stoped in the fuel tank, even when you use biocide, it gets past the filter and gets burned up in the combustion chamber, When I said its like black mold, that was a metaphore, not that it is black mold. but it will build up like plaque in your arteries , and continue to grow . Its a reaction between Diesel fuel and ANY condinsation.... and here on the wet coast we have alot of condinsation. we call it winter. you get it in ontario also, as your fuel gets heated up befor it gets injected, and only a portion of it gets used, the rest goes back to the fuel tank. where it warms up your fuel. causing a tank of warm fuel, then you stop your vehicle, Condinsation happins as it cools. and you have bacteria, no not alot, but now its growing.
Putting one ounce of biocide in your fuel a month will clean your system of bacteria like a roto rooter in a drain, (metaphore)

I think its great you have your own opionion of biocide, but also dangerous that you post it on the net as though its fact, there are alot of NEW to diesel people on here that are learning as they go and the last thing poeple need is to falsly believe that only if they let their vehicle sit for 6 months with fuel that then they will get bacterial growth. most dont even know about it, but it is a worry and a problem. Ive been a profesional driver for about 15 years, Logging, long haul, mining industries, and I know ALOT about diesel. maybe you have been lucky and not had a growth that has caused you prolems, but it will cost some one here on this board about 3k when all the mechaics work is done to re build the fuel system and hourly rate is done, to save $30 over 16 months.
and I dont even care if they buy it from me, just so long as they buy it.

[Green1]

Considering how many people drive diesel, and how few people have ever even HEARD of this type of problem, let alone experienced it.

And considering EVERY manufacturer specifically states NEVER to use any additives...

And considering that you claim to have had this problem several times.

There is something seriously wrong with your statements, if fuel systems were destroyed by this problem as often as you claim the additives would already be in the fuel when you buy it, and/or the manufacturers would be recommending it.

Considering neither of these to be the case, I'm left with only a few options... the only one I will say is CHANGE FUEL SUPPLIERS!!!!!

[ghmorris]

I think you really are missing the point, its not a matter of IF you have bacteria, its How much you have, even a vehicle that is on its first tank of fuel you have bacteria, Its bacteria not a 10micron piece of rust, and your fuel filter stops particals that are 10-15 microns, Its like haveing a blood disease in your body, once its in the fuel, it spreads, you get bacteria with every single fueling from the gas station, it is not stoped in the fuel tank, even when you use biocide, it gets past the filter and gets burned up in the combustion chamber, When I said its like black mold, that was a metaphore, not that it is black mold. but it will build up like plaque in your arteries , and continue to grow . Its a reaction between Diesel fuel and ANY condinsation.... and here on the wet coast we have alot of condinsation. we call it winter. you get it in ontario also, as your fuel gets heated up befor it gets injected, and only a portion of it gets used, the rest goes back to the fuel tank. where it warms up your fuel. causing a tank of warm fuel, then you stop your vehicle, Condinsation happins as it cools. and you have bacteria, no not alot, but now its growing.
Putting one ounce of biocide in your fuel a month will clean your system of bacteria like a roto rooter in a drain, (metaphore)

I think its great you have your own opionion of biocide, but also dangerous that you post it on the net as though its fact, there are alot of NEW to diesel people on here that are learning as they go and the last thing poeple need is to falsly believe that only if they let their vehicle sit for 6 months with fuel that then they will get bacterial growth. most dont even know about it, but it is a worry and a problem. Ive been a profesional driver for about 15 years, Logging, long haul, mining industries, and I know ALOT about diesel. maybe you have been lucky and not had a growth that has caused you prolems, but it will cost some one here on this board about 3k when all the mechaics work is done to re build the fuel system and hourly rate is done, to save $30 over 16 months.
and I dont even care if they buy it from me, just so long as they buy it.

And I think you are overreacting to a tiny problem.

Speaking of opinion as fact, let's consider the following.

My "opinion" of unnecessary biocide use is based on engine manufacturers reccomendations and MSDS sheets for biocides. Suggest you read one, its fascinating! You really don't want to be splashing this stuff around if you don't have to... Here's an example! http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/OC/2-n-o ... 3-one.html In point of fact, a lot of this stuff is so nasty that they don't let you freely download the MSDS sheet, you have to actually apply to the company to get it!

As you mentioned, if you do get a microbial build-up, its in your tanks and lines. You DO have a choice in filtering, typically down to 2 microns with aftermarket filters. This is good enough even for common-rail systems that are much fussier than traditional mechanical injection pumps. Filtering works. Very, very well!! And it gets all the non-biological stuff too which biocide doesn nothing for.

Microbial growth in diesel-like fuels is a function of age, storage conditions and water content. After that comes environmental conditions (how warm is it?).

If you are having this kind of problem all the time, you have a serious problem with contaminated supply, and/or you have a problem with not using your vehicle enough, or storing your vehicle with an empty tank instead of a full one. Condensation buildup is a tiny issue if your tank is full of fuel.

Personally, I've been messing around with diesels for more than 30 years and have never encountered the amount of grief you appear to run into regularly. And that's in climates ranging from the Yukon to Saudi Arabia including the Tropics...

If you want a more in-depth view of fuel care, look up "fuel polishing". This is not new stuff, its been an issue on diesel boats ever since there were diesel boats.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... +polishing

George

[loki]

I think you really are missing the point, its not a matter of IF you have bacteria, its How much you have, even a vehicle that is on its first tank of fuel you have bacteria, Its bacteria not a 10micron piece of rust, and your fuel filter stops particals that are 10-15 microns, Its like haveing a blood disease in your body, once its in the fuel, it spreads, you get bacteria with every single fueling from the gas station, it is not stoped in the fuel tank, even when you use biocide, it gets past the filter and gets burned up in the combustion chamber, When I said its like black mold, that was a metaphore, not that it is black mold. but it will build up like plaque in your arteries , and continue to grow . Its a reaction between Diesel fuel and ANY condinsation.... and here on the wet coast we have alot of condinsation. we call it winter. you get it in ontario also, as your fuel gets heated up befor it gets injected, and only a portion of it gets used, the rest goes back to the fuel tank. where it warms up your fuel. causing a tank of warm fuel, then you stop your vehicle, Condinsation happins as it cools. and you have bacteria, no not alot, but now its growing.
Putting one ounce of biocide in your fuel a month will clean your system of bacteria like a roto rooter in a drain, (metaphore)

I think its great you have your own opionion of biocide, but also dangerous that you post it on the net as though its fact, there are alot of NEW to diesel people on here that are learning as they go and the last thing poeple need is to falsly believe that only if they let their vehicle sit for 6 months with fuel that then they will get bacterial growth. most dont even know about it, but it is a worry and a problem. Ive been a profesional driver for about 15 years, Logging, long haul, mining industries, and I know ALOT about diesel. maybe you have been lucky and not had a growth that has caused you prolems, but it will cost some one here on this board about 3k when all the mechaics work is done to re build the fuel system and hourly rate is done, to save $30 over 16 months.
and I dont even care if they buy it from me, just so long as they buy it.

And I think you are overreacting to a tiny problem.

Speaking of opinion as fact, let's consider the following.

My "opinion" of unnecessary biocide use is based on engine manufacturers reccomendations and MSDS sheets for biocides. Suggest you read one, its fascinating! You really don't want to be splashing this stuff around if you don't have to... Here's an example! http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/OC/2-n-o ... 3-one.html In point of fact, a lot of this stuff is so nasty that they don't let you freely download the MSDS sheet, you have to actually apply to the company to get it!

As you mentioned, if you do get a microbial build-up, its in your tanks and lines. You DO have a choice in filtering, typically down to 2 microns with aftermarket filters. This is good enough even for common-rail systems that are much fussier than traditional mechanical injection pumps. Filtering works. Very, very well!! And it gets all the non-biological stuff too which biocide doesn nothing for.

Microbial growth in diesel-like fuels is a function of age, storage conditions and water content. After that comes environmental conditions (how warm is it?).

If you are having this kind of problem all the time, you have a serious problem with contaminated supply, and/or you have a problem with not using your vehicle enough, or storing your vehicle with an empty tank instead of a full one. Condensation buildup is a tiny issue if your tank is full of fuel.

Personally, I've been messing around with diesels for more than 30 years and have never encountered the amount of grief you appear to run into regularly. And that's in climates ranging from the Yukon to Saudi Arabia including the Tropics...

If you want a more in-depth view of fuel care, look up "fuel polishing". This is not new stuff, its been an issue on diesel boats ever since there were diesel boats.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... +polishing

George

cool you lived in Saudi? I lived there for 10 years, my dad worked for Aramco. We lived for a couple years in ras tanura (sp?) on the gulf and the rest of the time in Yanbu, I love diving in the Red Sea, and I miss the weather :)

[ghmorris]

Yup, spent a couple of years in the late '70s based in al-Khobar, worked for Halliburton at the time baby-sitting a cement pump truck (with a pair of 500hp Detroit 12V-71s deck engines - to keep it relevant to the thread) and lived in the Otis compound. Didn't see much of home because it was so busy. We worked all the way from the Rub al khali up as far as Basrah in Iraq. Spent quite a bit of time at Ras Tanura, but never made it over to Yanbu. I did hear the diving is great there though, always wanted to go.

We moved there from High Level, Alberta, so it was quite a contrast. I did a summer the previous year in Iran on a gas well fire and said "Never again", but you know how things change... In those days if you wanted to work overseas with Halliburton you did it via a hitch in the Middle East. It was fascinating once we got settled in.

Amazing how many people you bump into that have lived in Saudi!!

George

[mararmeisto]

"Water allowed to remain in fuel will culture a microorganism or bacteria that feeds on the hydrocarbons in the fuel, therefore degrading the fuel quality. Water is the worst and most common form of fuel contamination." <from: http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/fuel_polishing.htm>

If you have water content in your diesel fuel, you're just begging to have biologicals grow. I wouldn't know all the ins-and-outs of what kind of fuel is being run in the various machines described in this particular thread, but I do know from various readings that home-produced bio-diesel MUST NOT have any water in it, and if you're using waste vegetable oil you have to be extra careful to remove ALL the water (especially if you're getting it from a place that cooks a lot of frozen foods in their fryers). As for the bio-diesel which is sold commercially (we use the Columbia Fuels stuff which is B5), I imagine it is just as 'dry' as the regular diesel.

With respect to letting your fuel sit around and 'grow' this takes time and generally happens in warm, humid environments (like Victoria), but can be alleviated relatively simply: with filtration and movement. In the Navy, the frigates carry more than 1/2 million litres of diesel fuel in the tanks, and it is being moved around all the time, but we still have to 'polish' the fuel due to the environment (especially in the Middle East or off Central America). I can remember times when we were 'circulating fuel' every day when in the tropics, but less frequently when back in our own waters.

[EnviroImports.com]

I have had diesel bacteria take out two systems, over the years, not a daily event.. the biocide is a killer, absolutly, and I am glad that it is, it wipes out bacteria. thats whats its designed to do, for msds, yes i have lots of them as I am a Racor DISTRIBUTER I am very aware not to use it as salad dressing and to wash my hands after using it, but I do that after pumping fuel also.
if you dont want to use it, dont use it. it really doesent matter to me, just dont ask me for an injection pump over haul kit when you need it. or a fuel tank.
the using it once a month is a preventative measure, you can go long streaches without the growth being an issue , and then one day its an issue .
but for me $1.88/ month is a pretty good insurance policy against it.
water molicules are in the fuel , period, always will be, when the fuel is delivered it goes into a damp underground tank , when the lid is off the tank each day to do DIP readings rain gets insided, No not alot but its a daily ocurance, you will have water in your fuel,, your filter will take most of that out but its still there. fuel with bacteria allready growing in it is passing though your filter, its growing in your injection pump and on the lining of the walls, it doesent just leave because you run alot of fuel through. .
but clearly your against it, so be it.
dont use it.
its your van and you know best.

[Green1]

news flash... distributor recommends own product... 'nuff said.

[EnviroImports.com]

I use and recomend the product, Hense the website, but Im not trying to convert religion here, if you dont want it, dont use it, .
I would make more money selling a fuel system, vs a 16oz bottle of biocide.

[Green1]

people have been selling all sorts of fuel additives for as long as fuel has been around, they make all sorts of claims about the products, but in the end, it is generally snake oil.

The engineers that design diesel engines are not stupid, and every one of them recommends against ANY additives, not a single manufacturer recommends adding anything to your fuel tank other than the approved fuel, and in fact most will void the warranty by doing so.

Further to that, all of the fuel you can buy is already formulated to provide adequate lubricity and to remove unwanted contaminants. Additives can upset that balance, at best additives will do no harm, at worst they can damage your engine.

There is no good reason to add anything to the diesel that comes from the pumps at your local fuel station. Anyone who says otherwise is generally trying to sell something...

If you don't believe me, write a letter to Mitsubishi and ask what additives they recomend you add to your tank...

[EnviroImports.com]

so you honestly think adding lubricants to your fuel to replace the sulpher that has been taken out ( the lubrication) , so the Ultra low sulpher diesel that is designed for vehicles in the last two years, they have put input lubricants to acomadate our 15+ year old pumps?
this is what you seriously believe??
and you honestly think that diesel bacteria is a myth, and just a way to seperate you from your money, its all a big scam?.
well ok, clearly your mind is made up, Like I already said, its up to you.