Alcohol-water injection for Turbo diesels Good cheap HP/TQ

[delicat]

Fishtank,

By detonation they mean "knocking" or "pinging" which can destroy your engine. By increasing the octane or cetane you should reduce detonation.

Sounds like water injection allows you to run higher boost under a safer environment (lowering temperature) hence producing more power. I'm no expert, just a curious mind and searched other sites to see what they had to say and it was generally positive. It all depends of the application. At just over $200 it's not something to fall off the tree and it might be a good system but since hardly no one has been using it on a L300 it may be more gadget than anything else. Or could be a very well spent $200, I still don't know...

[bae146]

Fishtank,

By detonation they mean "knocking" or "pinging" which can destroy your engine. By increasing the octane or cetane you should reduce detonation.

Sounds like water injection allows you to run higher boost under a safer environment (lowering temperature) hence producing more power. I'm no expert, just a curious mind and searched other sites to see what they had to say and it was generally positive. It all depends of the application. At just over $200 it's not something to fall off the tree and it might be a good system but since hardly no one has been using it on a L300 it may be more gadget than anything else. Or could be a very well spent $200, I still don't know...

Well if 10 of you on the board send me 20.00 each I will install the stage one kit and let you know how it works??

[Fishtank]

Cetane and octane are different words for the same basic thing, Octane and Cetane are the most efficient fuel for and engine (cetane for diesel and octane for gas)

quote from wikipedia

A high tendency to autoignite, or low octane rating, is undesirable in a spark ignition engine but desirable in a diesel engine. The standard for the combustion quality of diesel fuel is the cetane number. A diesel fuel with a high cetane number has a high tendency to autoignite, as is preferred.

Loki, if you look at the definition given by Wikipeia, a higher octane rating on your fuel (which is what this water injection seems to do) would be a bad thing for a diesel. I am quiet familiar with octane and cetane, but still cannot understand why increasing octane is constantly referred to when we are dealing with a diesel here??

Again to Quote "...massively increase the effective octane rating of fuel." translates to "....the air/fuel ratio can be leaned out at high loads without increasing the likelihood of detonation.", all this, when detonation is what the diesel engine operation is predicated on. Again, to me this looks like altering when your engine will spark, fire, detonate, whatever term you would like to use, which is not very desirable in my books.

Fishtank,

By detonation they mean "knocking" or "pinging" which can destroy your engine. By increasing the octane or cetane you should reduce detonation.

Sounds like water injection allows you to run higher boost under a safer environment (lowering temperature) hence producing more power. I'm no expert, just a curious mind and searched other sites to see what they had to say and it was generally positive. It all depends of the application. At just over $200 it's not something to fall off the tree and it might be a good system but since hardly no one has been using it on a L300 it may be more gadget than anything else. Or could be a very well spent $200, I still don't know...

Delicat, back when my dad was racing snowmobiles, they used water injection to significantly increase their sleds performance. I think the biggest differentiation must be made with regards to the gasoline vs. diesel engine here. Did your research specify gas or diesel engine?

Still looking for the advantage here??

Well if 10 of you on the board send me 20.00 each I will install the stage one kit and let you know how it works??

Don't forget about a deposit on a new engine.

[delicat]

fishtank,

I mostly read what pertained to the diesel engine but if I cut/paste some of the article that refer to octane it's simply 'cause that's the part I clipped from the article. From my reading it sounded like it was more useful to diesel engine but who knows?

I think this tread has had it's course... I'd like to see the kit on someone's van but again, somebody else!

[Jester]

from the article it seems like it is likely to be usefull if someone decides to make their Deli into a high performance monster truck, with free breathing exhaust, bigger turbo and so on.

I doubt if there would be any significant improvement in economy, emissions or performance simply by slapping the $200 kit on the engine.
in fact according to the article:

6-When water injection is being used without any other engine ‘tune’ changes simultaneously being made (eg more advanced ignition timing, increased boost, increased compression ratio), power is likely to decline.

So again, it might be a good thing for someone going "all out" but it doesn't seem to be a quick, fast and cheap way to boost performance.

[guamdoc]

from the article it seems like it is likely to be usefull if someone decides to make their Deli into a high performance monster truck, with free breathing exhaust, bigger turbo and so on.

I doubt if there would be any significant improvement in economy, emissions or performance simply by slapping the $200 kit on the engine.
in fact according to the article:

Wika is not written by techicle experts by any means for one. And on all turbo diesels and I mean all, they will pick up HP/TQ you can dyno them all day long and prove that. The quote you have

6-When water injection is being used without any other engine ‘tune’ changes simultaneously being made (eg more advanced ignition timing, increased boost, increased compression ratio), power is likely to decline.

Is in regards to gas engines and is again completly wrong, if your vehicle is pulling timing then your loosing HP, If your running full timing then you get that power back. The drop in IAT alone provide hp gains as well as the lower EGT's which help your turbo or supercharger be more effiecent.

I guess I don't get were your coming from, You get dyno test provided to you with vehicles that are similar to your vehicles, with some gains as great as 60% and you go off of wiki to determine that it now makes no power and is a gadget.

Even just stait water will reduce emissions and adding alcohol provides significant reductions in NOX emissions, This is a proven fact world wide even the U.S EPA there is no question that it reduces emissions. I do believe I posted up emission certs on the very vehicle dynod but that is not enough evidence for some.

Adding alcohol injection is like adding larger nozzles/injectors more fuel = more power, but with alcohol your getting a much higher octane and it is lowering the EGT's when mixed with water. Diesels can only run a 50/50 mix because any more than that can cause over fueling and actually raise EGT and induce detonation. Any level below that = HP and TQ.

I doubt if there would be any significant improvement in economy, emissions or performance simply by slapping the $200 kit on the engine

If that is your logic then I guess the power gained with a 2gph nozzle with 50/50 alcohol cannot be real.
A bone stock WRX-STI picks up almost 27 Wheel HP with our base kit with no tuning and thats a gas engine. Like I said Wiki is not the place for techicle info on performance parts.

If the HP and TQ numbers here mean less than a wiki post there is no reason companies should dyno there products to show results.




To bad this forum does not have any Diesel Mechanics or ASE certified auto techs to explain this further. I am ASE certified for the last 15 years in case you needed to know.

You guys should really step out the box and visit other diesel sites regarding water injection. It's not popular because it does not work.

So again, it might be a good thing for someone going "all out" but it doesn't seem to be a quick, fast and cheap way to boost performance.

$220USD For the kit, H20/Methanol/Eythl/ISO

Cheap

10% to 50% more HP and TQ

performance.[/

2 1/2 Install time,

QUICK

Cleans your motor
Lowers egt's
Keeps vehicle engine temps normal even with towing
Steam cleans the internals
More power at less throttle if you don't think increasing your HP 10% 15%-20%-30%-40%- or 50% will not increase your performance I don't think you guys can be convinced. Our were just living in different worlds.

I'll be doing anouther Demo in the Philippines May 26th And I'll be sure to slap a Delica on the dyno for you but then again real world results don't seem to mean much on this forum.

Your vehicle does not have to be high HP to use the kit and get gains. Here's one of our new customers from Canada, This vehicle makes only 45 from the factory but he has had it chipped and now makes 60 but wants more power especially for the highway.

smart CDI 800 cc turbo diesel

[Green1]

To bad this forum does not have any Diesel Mechanics

Actually this forum has several well respected Diesel Mechanics... and none of them have rushed to your defense...

[BCDelica]

This is my favorite post lately, and Bilal thanks for taking the time here - hope you make one Delica owner convert!

Remember clearly our all guy tech at BCIT, when during a petroleum lab, first were introduced to water injection. Despite the basics we had all learned up to that point, all us car obsessed guys were like 'you gotta be kidding me - water shot into the combustion chamber', but water misted into the octane/cetane engine air (same engine BTW) did you know what to octane. We were burning gas in the engine of course. We still didn't feel convinced after seeing it after all what we thought we'd learned about engines growing up. Just as with WVO, people always have to overcome certain general ideas first before trying something that's new.

Green1 would make a perfect candidate, just think how much easier your Delica would fly down the Deerfoot!

Kev

[Green1]

Green1 would make a perfect candidate, just think how much easier your Delica would fly down the Deerfoot!

no thanks, I have already had to do one head replacement...

I tend to agree with the previous poster that one of 2 things will happen:
1) nothing (or effectively nothing) due to lack of other changes to account for (or take advantage of) the increased cetane rating
2) damage due to an engine not designed to handle the "extra power"

I don't see any reasonable likely hood of ANY positive outcome.

[Jester]

Well I have to admit that I am curious about it, and I wish I had a 'test' diesel to try it out on.
I'm not about to try it on my Deli, as it is my only vehicle, and cannot afford unnecessary down time.

...sooo, who's gonna go for it?
Again, I'd love to see the results for myself.

I think I'll mention it to Edwin and Butch next time I stop by CVI, see if perhaps Butch is willing to give it a shot.

to Guamdoc:
Dude, I realize it may seem like I'm attacking you or something, especially that this system seems to be your faith, pride and joy lol.
However, please understand that since you SELL them, I for one cannot possibly take your word at face value.
You may be the most honest, wholesome, well meaning person in the world and for all I know you are, but since I wasn't born yesterday, I'll just keep on driving my Deli on 86 ponies for the time being.
And with time, perhaps someone who DOESN't sell these will come up and say: "Shit guys, I got this thing installed 6 months ago on my Deli, and it's the best thing since sliced bread! It adds power AND saves fuel. Wanna see it?! You'd be stupid NOT to install it."

Until then, I'll keep an eye on this thread, and on Google.

...Unless Butch or Mardy gives it a shot.

[jwfchase]

You guys should really step out the box and visit other diesel sites regarding water injection. It's not popular because it does not work...

...I don't think you guys can be convinced. Our were just living in different worlds...

...I'll be doing anouther Demo in the Philippines May 26th And I'll be sure to slap a Delica on the dyno for you but then again real world results don't seem to mean much on this forum.

Guamdoc, keep in mind not everyone on this forum has chimed in on this discussion. There are a lot of people reading this thread and just observing. Turns out the earth is not flat after all, but then again you still can't turn lead into gold...

Until I decided for myself whether this is alchemy or a good idea, I thank you for the time you've spent on this forum, just as I thank those who have questioned you. If you feel someone is making unsubstantiated comments without backing themselves up or that you have already answered something several times over in the same thread, I suggest you just carry on. Like I said, there are lots of members of this forum reading along without coming out for or against.

[Sailing Deli]

Perhaps you could sponser some willing person who has the knowlege to install it with the parts. This way if it works they will report back how wonderfull they are and then more would be willing to buy them. Just a thought.

[jessef]

I'll do it if he sends me a test kit.

I'd have it fitted by a licensed diesel mechanic.

Jesse

[Miloki]

Guamdoc, I have spent way too much time reading this thread and trying to research it. Here are the issues which come to mind, that I invite you to address:

this is proven technology that works and is in use on vehicles all over the world with proven results

I have not seen any proof of anything other than reduced emissions. I'm not saying that emission reduction isn't a laudable goal, merely that you are claiming more than you have proven. And by proven, I mean evidence from impartial sources of your claims.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/TDC/publication/pdf ... 14272e.pdf
only talks about emissions and it was dealing with a marine vessel.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/air/PDFS ... lStudy.pdf
also deals only with emissions

In the 60's and 70's if was very common to find this in big rigs as well but turbo tech and intercoolers lead to more powerful engines and it was just phased out.

in other words, with improvements in technology, it was no longer advantageous.

Diesels are dirty plane and simple they waste up to 30% of there fuel. This is were the alcohol come in to play it causes a complete fuel burn making it more efficient like a gas engine in which most of them burn up to 98% of there fuel.

I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, or if they are accurate - could you please tell me where to find this info?
I DO know that the bottom line is that diesels are more efficient than gasoline engines AND produce less CO2, not to mention that diesel engines last longer than gasoline engines because they are not subject to the same stresses - so I'm not sure why I would want to do something that could increase the stress on the engine.

Wika is not written by techicle experts by any means for one.

Please show us something that is, that also substantiates your claims.

I guess I don't get were your coming from, You get dyno test provided to you with vehicles that are similar to your vehicles, with some gains as great as 60%...

I believe the problem is that you - who stand to gain financially by getting us to believe you - have not produced any independent verification of the claims.

To bad this forum does not have any Diesel Mechanics

Actually this forum has several well respected Diesel Mechanics... and none of them have rushed to your defense...

my thought exactly

but then again real world results don't seem to mean much on this forum.

Acutally, real world results DO mean a lot. There are a number of people on here that have very strong critical thinking skills; therefore, they wisely do not rely on the word of an unknown person with strong financial interest in the matter. Provide some results from independent (and preferably peer-reviewed) studies, and I can assure you that a number of us will rush to purchase your product.

I'll do it if he sends me a test kit.
I'd have it fitted by a licensed diesel mechanic.
Jesse

I'll second that.
Oh, but I'll also want a guarantee that if my engine goes within the first 200,000kms of use, he'll also cover THAT cost.

[guamdoc]

Wika is not written by techicle experts by any means for one.

I'll just start with this one for example it looks like you guys just think everyone makes things up. It looks like you want a link for every statement made. You might want to try looking up some of this stuff for yourself it is info readly availible.

A wiki is software that allows registered users or anyone to collaboratively create, edit, link, and organize the content of a website, usually for reference material. Wikis are often used to create collaborative websites and to power community websites. These wiki websites are often also referred to as wikis; for example, Wikipedia is one of the best known wikis. Wikis are used in businesses to provide affordable and effective intranets and for Knowledge Management. Ward Cunningham, developer of the first wiki, WikiWikiWeb, originally described it as "the simplest online database that could possibly work".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

This one is a lost cause because if you cannot take dyno sheets as evidence I don't know what more I can do for you.
you can feel free to visit other kit makers sites since hard numbers are not good for you. As I'm stating for the 4th time there are many vendors that sell these around the world. Never said (Buy from us) Just to check out the systems. Shops with in house Dynos don't tend to be in the business of fudging the numbers.
www.snowperfomance.net
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.as ... goryID=120
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/

Like I said proven on 1000's of vehicles the world over.


I don't think a shop would inport these all the way to South Africa if they didn't deliver as promised.
http://shop.rezlo.com/SA/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=20

Feel free to check out the others kits makers dealers as well. I don't know how many performance shops you need to review the product when there is tons of them that already carry them including Summit racing equipment. Snow kits are very similar to ours in case you have not checked them out.

I believe the problem is that you - who stand to gain financially by getting us to believe you - have not produced any independent verification of the claims.

I don't know how many you want, And if you think all these shops and owners are out to lie to just to make a buck on 1 of the many products they sell. This is a small forum not a big one with 1000's of dollars in sales potential so I guess I don't understand your logic.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch ... 4294814679

More of our many dealers.
http://www.sandrperformance.com/index.asp
http://www.bwoodyperformance.com/
http://www.jmbperformance.com/store/
http://www.pagparts.com/
http://www.apextuning.com/
http://www.fwdperformance.com/
http://www.speedwaremotorsports.com/
http://www.rtmracing.com/
http://www.baade-motorsport.eu/
http://www.speedlab.com.ph (This is were the dyno's were done)

Other companies articles and dynos because you seem to think we would lie to make a few bucks. We answer 100's of emails a day and tons of PM's from all the forums were on plus all the ones we are paid vendors on. If you don't feel like researching the product that's fine but try to stay away from bashing the company for trying to bring you something new.

http://www.snowperformance.net/product_ ... pdf-40.pdf

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/ford ... index.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gene ... ation.html

http://superstreet.automotive.com/54246 ... index.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0801_ ... index.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodg ... index.html

Do your own reasearch and make up your own minds. I just don't have to time to link every single fact up for a few people.

If you get a kit no matter what brand or company then you do, If you don't you don't.

Cheers