Thread/Post Etiquette poll

[dfnder]

Please answer this poll.

[Green1]

There is a little more to it than that though. People should definitely be given the opportunity to present evidence to back up their claim, and if the evidence supports the position, the posts should remain.

The tricky part is deciding if the evidence is "valid". I would support deleting completely unsubstantiated accusations, but at what level do you set the threshold for "proof"? if someone posts "proof" and it's not up to our standards what do you do? and who's standards are used to decide if the "proof" is any good?

[dfnder]

Substance can be discussed, when it is deemed unsubstantiated by an Admin - delete it or not?

Evidence should be presented when a claim is made, if it isn't then that initial post should be deleted or not?

[Green1]

I think I'd be in favour of deleting if no evidence is presented, but if some is presented, then the merits can be discussed, but as long as it isn't completely ludicrous I don't think it should be deleted (though possibly locked if it becomes ridiculous)

I'm guessing this is all a result of our resident royalty's recent shinanigans. And I would say that the initial evidence is valid (though thoroughly debunked) and that is worth leaving up... the further attacks needed to be stopped though.
furthermore though, a member who provides no positive value, while continually attacking other members should probably be dealt with either way.

[loki]

I think I'd be in favour of deleting if no evidence is presented, but if some is presented, then the merits can be discussed, but as long as it isn't completely ludicrous I don't think it should be deleted (though possibly locked if it becomes ridiculous)

I'm guessing this is all a result of our resident royalty's recent shinanigans. And I would say that the initial evidence is valid (though thoroughly debunked) and that is worth leaving up... the further attacks needed to be stopped though.
furthermore though, a member who provides no positive value, while continually attacking other members should probably be dealt with either way.

delete or not the lag time on the banstick needs to be reduced imho

[Green1]

one other thing that needs to be addressed I think is how we deal with multiple personalities... I think that any time someone uses alternate identities to get around a ban, or to try to discredit someone without showing their own identity, ALL their identities should be banned.

[FalcoColumbarius]

I voted no. We have a system in place for this ~ and although it may not be flawless ~ it works. If someone has something to say then as a community we must hear them out. If they need to express their opinion more ~ then we must give them more rope. If they become positively slanderous then the rope will take care of the rest.

If the management took the "yes vote" approach, then all you would need to do is visit the "Beefs & Bouquets" forum to figure out for yourselves who would get banned. However, I think this a very valid discussion and am glad that Dfnder brought it up.

Falco.

BTW: I just got the relevance to your name (dfnder), witty and somewhat ironic... grins.

[Golf Cart]

I can understand dfnder's reasoning for starting this thread, and agree to a point. We do have Moderators in place to "referee" the site specifically for this reason. Although I am not familiar with the Moderators criteria for interceding on behalf of the "CLUB" but I would think they have rules to follow that were thought out by members to protect each and every one of us.

Is there room for change?, possibly, but changes to the system in place should be discussed and a vote taken based on that. Everyone included.

Does everyone that has posted on this thread know how to resolve an issue based on the Clubs rules? Does anyone here know who actually gets the e-mail?

I for one am guilty at one time or another of "feeding the fire" so to speak, and we all have a lil "E-Thug in us, but is it really the avenue we want to keep going down everytime something or someone decides to step outside the boundaries.

WE have a good group of people here, and I know there are more out there. The last thing we need to do is lose participation from the members we have now that have an endless supply of knowledge, search savy, and good old fashion "Club Spirit". We also don't want to give an impression to potential new members that this site is nothing more than a slow moving Yahoo chatroom with cool pics of cool wheels.

Keep it real lads n lassies because I'd hate to lose this site due to lack of intelligence.

[dfnder]

I thought the discussion would continue on another thread about the issues I see but I guess I will continue here like others have already done.

I'll list observations/thoughts.

- Either you ban posts or not
- If any posts are banned what is the criteria
- Our domain has rules already regarding the current issue of topic.
- A few members feel action should happen quicker
- Are the majority of active/concerned members happy with the current state, if they aren't then what can be done to solve it
- solve it

My view is that for a forum to be public it needs to follow the majority of active/concerned members. Then you choose if that forum is one you wish to belong to.

Are the current list of Admin actively on the site regularly? I am on here every day I am near a comp, as I know many are - even though we may not post. We may not need more Admin but we may need swifter action, I don't know how often they are on. The Admin should uphold the general accepted practices, when practices/views change they should govern as the majority of active/concerned members views change. Just my thoughts.

I can't take the credit you bestow Falco hehe, I have competed in a sport to a high level primarily as a goalie and so I took the moniker dfnder.

(No I do not want to be an Admin ty)

[tonydca]

IMHO it is very difficult to stop losers like this from posting under new identities, etc.

And as has been mentioned, arguing the point on the thread often just adds fuel to the flames and encourages the poster to keep the thread alive.

My two bits:

- we have a section for Dealer Beefs, bouquets, etc. If a thread complaining about a dealer is in any other section, admin should move it here.

- admin can have a big red sticky at the top of the Dealer Beef section, "READ ME FIRST!!" Write up a brief disclaimer stating that this forum is open to all comers, and that comments in this section may not be representative of the experiences of the community as a whole, people should do their own due diligence, get both sides of the story directly from the parties concerned, etc.

- anyone who is the subject of an article along the lines of Kei King's has the opportunity to state simply "I feel that this complaint is unsubstantiated; any interested third party can PM/email/contact me to discuss this if they wish, but I will not give satisfaction by replying to untruths". Perhaps they can request that such a response be set up as the first response in the thread.

People who can only make arguments based on lies inevitably have things blow up in their face in the end.

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
— Mark Twain

[Mephisto]

I believe if one has enough intelligence to be a worthy member of this society they already posses the faculties to determine that everything on the internet must be taken with a caveat. If someone wants to start a war they will in due time portray themselves as an "E-Thug" and lose credibility, but, we should remember the tale of the boy who cried wolf. I am in no way saying the "king" is a positive entity on this forum, as this discussion is of no doubt concerning him, though I have seen him post one or two things that were helpful.

I'm just saying free speech is a wonderful thing and I wouldn't want to stifle any of it. Look at the "Intelligent design" vs. evolution debate, I wholely disagree with "ID" but not letting ID proponents have their say seems to have made them all the more determined and has given them another reason to fight harder. The more I read about it the more I think they are fools, but, more than 40% of americans believe in it. If more info made it to the public in an unbiased form I think that number would change significantly. When only biased information makes it out people only see the attacks rather than the actual information causing people to retain their predetermined views rather than being openminded. I think multiple view points are a precious part of our current mindset and without them our knowledge will not be able to grow as quickly. Trying to discern whether someones views are wrong should not be up to a select few, they should be up to the individual. Just my three cents/sense.

[jessef]

I would like to see the following enforced :

- personal attacks
- swearing, insults, foul language
- harrassment

If a member does any of the above, they get a warning with the post/thread deleted completely.

2nd time, same as above with a warning that they will be banned if it happens again.

3rd time, they are banned.

Most Internet forums follow this policy or one similar to it.

It will keep repeat idiots out and all othes in.

I would like to make a note about the last 'episode' we just had. If the moderators leave those threads and posts up, it will affect the dealer being accused.

I spoke with four people who were in the market for a Spacegear and they googled the accused and these threads came up.

None of them wanted to have anything to do with this mess.

Do you see how this can negatively impact accused dealers and sellers ? It doesn't matter if they are the most honest people on the planet, they have been involved in dealer vs dealer wars that spewed on the forum. Quite a few people just don't want to be involved regardless of which side/dealer they choose.

That's my opinion and observation. A different point of view.

[Lacerta]

I would like to make a note about the last 'episode' we just had. If the moderators leave those threads and posts up, it will affect the dealer being accused.

I spoke with four people who were in the market for a Spacegear and they googled the accused and these threads came up.

None of them wanted to have anything to do with this mess.

Do you see how this can negatively impact accused dealers and sellers ? It doesn't matter if they are the most honest people on the planet, they have been involved in dealer vs dealer wars that spewed on the forum. Quite a few people just don't want to be involved regardless of which side/dealer they choose.

If you don't mind a some input from a low-post ghost member I might add a little here ;)

These threads can cause a great amount of harm to the dealers if they stay, only a few days ago I was showing a relative some more Delicas and Pajeros for sale. Been warming him up to the idea of a trip to BC to grab one (or two, he is starting to consider one as well :3 ). We spotted one of those attack threads started by one of the recent members and asked about it. I told him the bit of drama and disagreement going on, and regardless that I explained it was merely a low life attempting to smear the reputations of others, I just got a comment of "Why would I want to risk investing in something like this?" Needless to say I no longer have someone over my shoulder drooling over Delicas and related with me for a while now.

Also this is just related to needless attacks, not posts with valid reasons, such as a new recent one about a dealer (with a rather dramatic title) but some backstory with reasonable proof behind it.

Also another note guys, remember who your friends are around here, regardless of your own opinions of disrespectful members between each other and the policies we all abide by here. Another experience of my own, recently a IRC community I frequent was gutted due to two disrespectful members, though the group is mostly recovered now, it only took two people with disregard for others to cause harm to a great crowd of people.

I've only seen a great, friendly crowd around here since I started keeping an eye on this place, lets keep it that way, eh?

[pajerry]

I haven't read the above posts, but I know how this poll came to be..

It is a public forum, and those who read it are usually smart enough to read between the lines. Deleting such posts is a hassle for the mods, and completely useless when it is people such as keiking, jason etc etc that look bad in the end.

[dfnder]

Understanding what is going on is easy for those that are familiar and up to date with the forum, what about those that just come to this site.

What of the active contributing members that get sick of reading these types of posts and decide they want to lighten their stress level a little? Most of the valuable contributions to this site are from those that do it solely to help others - they have no vested interest and if it becomes too much of a pain then they will leave. I have been an active member on various sites for many years, some of the forums I now avoid because of all the mud slinging that goes on.