Injector Exchange

[jessef]

talk to the majority of diesel owners and they will tell you using WVO is totally wrong and will not work, but the reality is someone went ahead and poured WVO in their tank and saw how well it worked, and now Bobs your uncle.

Rudolph Diesel did just that a while ago... Thanks to him we are chatting about diesels on this forum.

[RichD]

Like, wow...... You guys really miss Steven don't you...

Is it possible that someone else has an opinion?
And could it be all right if that opinion doesn't necessarily jive with your own?
Just a thought, you know?

If you hear an opinion and you don't agree with it...
perhaps practice one's dialectic skills and have a sensible dialogue ~
in the end we can all agree to disagree on some points.

Fair enough, Falco, but you are hereby dubbed Dr Pepper.

Also, I need a moment of grace from you because I'm going to be pedantic. This is the third time today that someone corresponding with me has used the word jive wrong. Nothing personal but I can't help myself:

jibe is the word for agreeing.
gibe is to tease.
jive is to deceive or also to dance.

Ah. Thanks, I feel better now.

[MardyDelica]

hi,
just to chip into this as tinykisss is saying,
me and cvi knows that we dont take a chance to put a hyundai 4d56 newer model injector to 4m40,
its a big risk to our customer to do this.
first who will pay for the expenses if anything goes wrong on the engine of this 4m40 engine. when soemthing goes wrong with the car.
if we install it. me personally wont take a chance or experiment to any of my customer or buyer.
labor is not cheap and people dont have the money to spend.
if somebody want to do experiment he can do it to his personal car. but not experiment to other people car saying this is good and ok to used.
there is 2 type of 4d56 engine in korea hyundai, but you guys miss another 4d56 engine.
we got lots of this mitsubishi engine in the phils. also with korean engine.4d56
but were been advise by mitsubishi dealer not to used this korean injector.
we have to remember that 4m40 engine dont exist in korea so nobody test it in korea thru hyundai dealer saying this is ok.
anybody could experiment for there personal used but not commercial used saying this is the same and ok to used.
the best way is maybe you tinykiss ask mitsubishi japan if this injector 4d56 engine newer model engine would be fit 4m40 engine.
then from there you will find the answer.
dont forgot there is now another 4d56 engine for crdi used by mitsubishi that hyundai dont have.
i ask mitsubishi dealer in japan and mitsubishi philippines about this. they laugh at me and say i am crazy for what i am saying.
they are totally different engine thats what they say.
in short to this topic is that
if anybody can show proof from mitsubishi japan office that this 4d56 injector is fine to used to 4m40. let them test it and see the result.
we all have different opinion but if nobody has a concrete data to back up this issue or this topic regarding this injector ,
then its up to anybody to think if they want to used this injector or not,
thru my experience working with this 4d56 engine since back home and in canada we never do experiment this as this is a waste of time and effort.any mechanic will laugh as its totally diff engine and horsepower.

pls think first before you used it.
it might be late to anybody who used this type of injector putting to different engine.
we never know what will happen to your engine, all this injector was been design by mitsubishi engineer. there is a reason behind thats why they put 2 different injector on different engine.
those engineer put time and effort to build this engine, they dont do experiment thing that make them in trouble later.

hope this help to think people first before experimenting this parts that is not original design for that engine.
cheers;
Mardy

[FalcoColumbarius]

Like, wow...... You guys really miss Steven don't you...

Is it possible that someone else has an opinion?
And could it be all right if that opinion doesn't necessarily jive with your own?
Just a thought, you know?

If you hear an opinion and you don't agree with it...
perhaps practice one's dialectic skills and have a sensible dialogue ~
in the end we can all agree to disagree on some points.

Okay?

Falco.

I agree that we never all agree...

but to be honest I think this injector thing needs investigated. Someone needs to confirm that these injectors are work in the 4M40 motor.... A source for published spray patterns, threads, breaking pressures, and if possible a cross reference for using in the 4M40 to replace stock injectors is needed. Or an independent injector house comparing the injectors. I know that if you have your injectors rebuilt most injector re-builders require the numbers off the injector pump (so two motors same year will be setup differently)

I truly believe that putting these injectors in replacing old injectors improves mileage and performance (over stock injectors not functioning). But I am not convinced by the evidence given that they are the injectors for the 4M40 applications.

This discussion (respectful discussion) is important. Are these ok in the 4m40 long term (I hope this is the case...please please please lets see some solid published sources or independent testing).

Cheers

I concur with you on this point, Thedjjack ~ we truly need to get to the bottom of the issue, but as Rezdiver has observed ~ time will tell. The important thing that I see in this thread is that no one has actually been proven wrong, yet. So perhaps we should not draw conclusions too fast. I know people that put eleven volt glow plugs in their Astron motors, which I think is wrong ~ but it does work. So different ideas? If the spray pattern is different and the injector is emptying directly into the chamber then could it create long term damage to the piston heads? I have read that the B-type 4D56 injector has the same spray pattern as the 4M4 Turbo (ten degree fan) but the injectors themselves are shaped differently.

This is pretty much where I think the discussion is ~ not trolls, bullies or covert agendas.

RichD: When I hear the word "Jibe" I instinctively duck as to me it means we are doing a 270° turn and a great big piece of timber will be shortly passing overhead. "Jive?" Jive is a reference to dance, you are correct ~ it's just that not all ideas dance with each other ~ hence Jive, man, when ideas jive then everything is groovy. Perhaps it's a generational thing.

Peace,
Falco.

[claude]

Jesse Wrote:
"Reza, there is a variation large enough to warrant complaints in the past years about the longevity of one manufacturer compared to another for both plugs and nozzles. ie. 4M40 nozzles from China lasted 4 months. Never again."


Jesse,
i googled the injectors and found a few discussions on russian websites regarding the injector compatibility. too bad i cant read russian.

Maybe we can help, my wife and son speak russian

[RichD]

Dr Pepper, I suggest that you consult a dictionary, and go easy on the jive talk.

[jessef]

Jesse Wrote:
"Reza, there is a variation large enough to warrant complaints in the past years about the longevity of one manufacturer compared to another for both plugs and nozzles. ie. 4M40 nozzles from China lasted 4 months. Never again."


Jesse,
i googled the injectors and found a few discussions on russian websites regarding the injector compatibility. too bad i cant read russian.

Maybe we can help, my wife and son speak russian

so does Maryna (my other half). She is where I got the .ru info from in the first place. UK and Oz and HU threads have been up for a while and discussed along with the PHI and SA forums. RSI's quotes are on those forums and the response is either bewilderment or laughter. To me, that is not a good sign. But.. what the hell do those guys across the ocean know? They have had these machines for over a decade.

Falco, you're right. They may work or may not. I'm certain when selling his L400's that Steven has been informing his customers that he is conducting an experiment with a part not intended for the L400 in their fuel delivery system.

Tinykiss has not contributed to this discussion other than to stir the drama pot on Steven's behalf while he is banned. Counter productive to this tech section discussion.

So far as I can tell, Steven, Butch, Mardy, David, Reza and myself are the only one's either conducting or have been actively researching this specific injector discussion.

[Manitoba deli]

In my opinion, if the tip has the same angle of spray, and is designed for the same cracking pressure, it is not experimental, it is the same. I am not afraid to use these parts, in my own l400 or a customers, and provide warranty with it. Most of these posts could be shortened if the posters simply stated that they are not satisfied with Steven being gone, they also don't want people buying his parts. RSI has definitely been one of the leaders in finding equivalent parts at economical prices. RSI warranties their work, I warranty mine, I don't see the problem other than a few people with personal dislikes. If you want to question my knowledge or experience because of the fact that I don't live on the west coast, feel free to, but I suggest you stop by first, and check things out for yourself. I am not a cut and paste keyboard mechanic.

Jason

[RichD]

In my opinion, if the tip has the same angle of spray, and is designed for the same cracking pressure, it is not experimental, it is the same. I am not afraid to use these parts, in my own l400 or a customers, and provide warranty with it. Most of these posts could be shortened if the posters simply stated that they are not satisfied with Steven being gone, they also don't want people buying his parts. RSI has definitely been one of the leaders in finding equivalent parts at economical prices. RSI warranties their work, I warranty mine, I don't see the problem other than a few people with personal dislikes. If you want to question my knowledge or experience because of the fact that I don't live on the west coast, feel free to, but I suggest you stop by first, and check things out for yourself. I am not a cut and paste keyboard mechanic.

If the parts were being provided with a warranty, as you suggest, I have to agree that the parts could be deemed equivalent by a consumer. That warranty is the great equalizer.

However I would suggest that you make claims about your own warranties alone as I think a few people are going to get caught up on that claim you made on his behalf.

I also enjoy the fact that RSI has sourced some importantly discounted parts for my vehicles and I'm glad to give him my business, and I refer customers to him all the time for parts. But I don't think that the debate is about RSI but about the equivalence of a Hyundai part vs a Mitsubishi part.

I think that there needs to be a lot less bashing of RSI and you guys should just speak with your wallets. I like to deal with everyone, and use them for whatever they are good at. No I'm not buying his injectors or his glow plugs but that is just because I am conservative and can afford to be. Your mileage may vary.

[Manitoba deli]

If you are to buy only the injector tip that Mitsubishi Japan recommends, you will find that even Mitsubishi will warranty nothing other than the tip itself. This is because they cannot control the quality of your knowledge or workmanship. If you have any doubts or fears, you should have any parts installed by the supplier so that you can have a warranty. So all things being equal, I know Steven will offer the same warranty on an injector tip that Mitsubishi will offer on theirs. That being the tip is free from defects. Period. Feel free to call him yourself to find out. If you think Mitsubishi will offer you more, again, feel free to call them your self and find out.

Jason

[thedjjack]

I have no issue with RSI, never have (you might have to separate "Posting Steven" and RSI though ....)

Once Steven is back if he can post up the source for those numbers (this is why I think it is important that RSI and all dealers participate in this form) then I would be happy (published Hyundai specs for the injectors options he sells).

If Steven wants to PM me or email I will be happy to post the specs for him (unless the administration has an issue with this?)

if the specs are same than it is not an experiment, just a replacement part.

[ccautos]

Take out your injectors, refurbish them using a reputable injection shop that set them up and test them and then put them back in the same vehicle they came out of !!! Not always the cheapest way of doing it, not always the most convenient way but it insures correct application and insures the customer gets what they pay for. Why re-invent the wheel ??

[ccautos]

Arghhhh frack, im out of Popcorn! Can you guys hold on 'till I'm back from the grocery store?

:friday:

I`m off to the store for popcorn too !!! Maybe I should grab some beer too, this is getting good entertainment

[Diver]

There's more to a diesel fuel injector than simply spray pattern and cracking pressure. This information is provided in manuals so that injectors can be tested and set up correctly, it's not there so that you can find two injectors for two different engines and interchange them just because those pieces of information happen to be the same.
The obvious difference between these injectors is going to be in delivery volume. A 2.5 litre 85hp engine does NOT require the same amount of fuel as a 2.8 litre 125hp engine. The size of the the hole in the nozzle through which the fuel passes will be larger for the engine that requires more fuel. Here's an extreme example. A 1 litre car engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. A 12 litre truck engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. Assuming you could thread them into into either vehicle's head, do you think you could interchange them? What do you think might happen if you tried? What do you think would happen to the truck's injector pump as it tries on one stroke to push all that diesel through the tiny hole of the 1 litre car's injector?
In the world of fuel injection there is no such thing as 'close enough'. Why do you think there are thousands of different types of injector? Has the motor industry missed a trick for the last hundred years or so by developing all these different ones when in reality just one would do for every engine? Someone should tell them.....

[rezdiver]

There's more to a diesel fuel injector than simply spray pattern and cracking pressure. This information is provided in manuals so that injectors can be tested and set up correctly, it's not there so that you can find two injectors for two different engines and interchange them just because those pieces of information happen to be the same.
The obvious difference between these injectors is going to be in delivery volume. A 2.5 litre 85hp engine does NOT require the same amount of fuel as a 2.8 litre 125hp engine. The size of the the hole in the nozzle through which the fuel passes will be larger for the engine that requires more fuel. Here's an extreme example. A 1 litre car engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. A 12 litre truck engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. Assuming you could thread them into into either vehicle's head, do you think you could interchange them? What do you think might happen if you tried? What do you think would happen to the truck's injector pump as it tries on one stroke to push all that diesel through the tiny hole of the 1 litre car's injector?In the world of fuel injection there is no such thing as 'close enough'. Why do you think there are thousands of different types of injector? Has the motor industry missed a trick for the last hundred years or so by developing all these different ones when in reality just one would do for every engine? Someone should tell them.....

Volume is definately an issue but i think your comparison is as you stated an unlikely and extreme comparison that does not stand in this arguement. a 1 liter and a 12 liter comparison is irrelevant and does not make sense.

A diesel motor can easily gain over 30 horsepower just by cranking the fuel and opening up the air using the same injectors. so comparing a 85hp and 125hp is again not that big of deal. if your injectors are giving out too much vloume per stroke you can easily compensate by adjusting the IP fueling.

your IP pumps out way more fuel than your injectors actually use, and adding an injector that outputs more volume within reason will not affect your IP other than running too rich. and if your injectors are the other way and running too lean because they cannot provide enough fuel i think the results will be lack of power.

since everyone is talking about engine damage and IP damage, can someone possibly list or explain what kind of damage you suspect may happen if the wrong injector is used that has the same spray pattern and break pressure.

Edit:

a common conversion to a diesel is to change the nozzles to increase volume of fuel delivered to gain more power when doing performance upgrades to the motor. larger nozzles will give more fueling with a shorter duration.