Propane injection & Bypass oil filter

[jessef]

save yourself $1,200, buy the same kit from the US dealer and install it yourself. Major cost savings. Install is straight forward akin to the water meth install.

I'll be going this route this summer. Just waiting for a good condition westy propane tank to surface locally.

DIY write up

http://www.dieselbombers.com/general-di ... opane.html

Massive in-depth report on why/how's

http://seminarprojects.com/Thread-power ... ull-report

[Drumster]

Hmm, that's good to know. $1200 does seem pretty steep, especially if the two systems are pretty much same. In conversation I mentioned the Powershot 2000 and the Eco-shot rep inferred that they're somehow illegal in Canada. I chalked this statement up to discrediting the competition.

I'll still need someone to do the install for me though because the condo I live in doesn't permit working on vehicles; whether the cost has to be $600 is another story.

Do you happen know if any of the various other items listed at the Powershot site will be required for our purposes? They've got the actual unit itself for $650 but there's a number of other things there which seem like they might also be necessary. eg, "remote fill unit", "air/water separator", "in-cab controller" etc. Possible the high eco-shot price includes these other things? Not sure.

save yourself $1,200, buy the same kit from the US dealer and install it yourself. Major cost savings. Install is straight forward akin to the water meth install.

I'll be going this route this summer. Just waiting for a good condition westy propane tank to surface locally.

DIY write up

http://www.dieselbombers.com/general-di ... opane.html

Massive in-depth report on why/how's

http://seminarprojects.com/Thread-power ... ull-report

[Mr. Flibble]

I noticed that the diesel L400 drivers tried propane injection in the L400 and had no appreciable effects unless a large amount of propane was used. Seems no one in OZ uses propane injection now. (they do use propane in their V6's though). they tried this in L400s some years ago, with large propane tanks.

The advantage would be using propane as an additive file that costs less than diesel. Disadvantage is that propane displaces some of the air in the intake.

[Drumster]

..... I'll be going this route this summer. Just waiting for a good condition westy propane tank to surface locally....

Another option if one of those fails to surface locally:

http://busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnum ... oppingcart

[negativentropy]

Hey guys I havent posted a write up on my website about it, but I have a working propane injection kit on my L400. Heres the results:

First off, I bought the kit on Ebay for $350. Plus $50 for a 5lbs propane tank. The Ebay seller has a number you can call, hes helpful and knowledgeable when it comes time to install the thing.

The system responds to your turbos suction at the air intake. At idle with no suction, no propane gets drawn into the intake. The more suction, the more propane. So the system automatically delivers the appropriate propane depending on how much power your engine is producing. This is all done within the propane regulator, no electronics or sensors required. Its a simple, elegant way of doing it.

According to the seller he makes no claims about increased fuel economy. All this stuff about the propane helping burn uncombusted diesel is false, at least in a L400. The propane injection does produce noticeable power, with very little increased EGT. However, at a setting where power increase is noticeable, a 5lbs tank will last you a quarter tank of diesel. So unless you get a massive propane tank (where do you store it?) and have a cheap place to fill up the tank I probably would not bother installing this system, in hindsight. Now that I have it anyway, I use it when I need more power, like going up hills - this means the 5 lbs tank lasts me several diesel tanks worth.

[jessef]

It must be the difference between the ebay one and the power shot controlled one along with your settings. There's different PI systems out there. The powershot being the benchmark or most commonly used and the bullydog one as well. There was a static bench test done and the bullydog sucked the propane compared to the powershot. There's an obvious difference between makes/injection systems so that may come into play for yours.

Have you had it tuned for economy ? John and Wayne (has been installing variable propane injection kits in diesels (specifically JDM Toyo/Mitsu's for the past decade) said that the variable flow rates make a big difference in PI consumption.

If your system is over injecting propane, then it will be thirsty. 3 cfm at max boost with a gradual increase of propane is the benchmark Wayne uses and tunes from there.

Burning through a 5lb tank in under one 70L fill is insane for a 4cyl TD.

Dave's 3.0L 4cyl TD Toyo Hilux is very close to the 2.8L 4M40 Mitsu. AR on both turbo's are the same.

He uses a 5lb tank mounted under the driver's side belly and he gets a significant fuel economy gain and HP increase. I posted it earlier in this thread last year.

He's over 130,000km's on the powershot system.

[Mr. Flibble]

According to the seller he makes no claims about increased fuel economy. All this stuff about the propane helping burn uncombusted diesel is false, at least in a L400. The propane injection does produce noticeable power, with very little increased EGT. However, at a setting where power increase is noticeable, a 5lbs tank will last you a quarter tank of diesel. So unless you get a massive propane tank (where do you store it?) and have a cheap place to fill up the tank I probably would not bother installing this system, in hindsight. Now that I have it anyway, I use it when I need more power, like going up hills - this means the 5 lbs tank lasts me several diesel tanks worth.

When I searched the OZ forum, that is the same result I saw. Adding the propane allowed you to "add" another fuel, so if propane costs less than diesel, it reduces your dollars per MPG by supplementing with propane. However, it still runs like a normal fuel. Meaning, to get any noticeable benefit you have to burn it in large amounts.

Adding propane does add power, because you are adding fuel to the cylinders. As negativentropy stated however, it does not "burn more" diesel fuel. In a well running diesel, 99.9% of your diesel burns while running, except perhaps at cold startup.

The best lowering of cost for operating seems to be the WVO route.

[jessef]

Results may vary

Works for some, not for others. News on fleet/school buses using it. http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/news.html

[Mr. Flibble]

Results may vary

Works for some, not for others. News on fleet/school buses using it. http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/news.html

I would take stories from the manufacturer with a grain of salt. Granted, there is no question that this system can do two beneficial things. One, it can add power. (It does this by adding fuel). Two, it can add in a less expensive fuel (propane) alongside the primary fuel (diesel/wvo). So, it can decrease your dollars per mile if you fill up both tanks. You would need a large propane tank for this however (and as much is stated on the link provided).

How I see it:

Benefits:
Potential for fuel savings if you don't mind filling up with two distinct fuel types
lower intake temps
lower EGT temps if used properly (propane has less energy, lower combustion temp)
propane burns without black smoke, so large particle emissions reduced

Risks/Concerns:
fuel is added in via a different regulating system, run on or over fueling possible
real risk of destroying engine with too much propane (google this in other forums)
propane can cause pre-detonation and may require timing adjustments.
added fuel separate from diesel can actually increase EGT (pyro recommended)
propane lowers the intake temp, but it does so at the expense of displacing oxygen in the air ingested

[Drumster]

jfarsang, I'd like to talk to the John & Wayne you've referred to regarding installation. How can I reach them? Thanks.

[jessef]

Sent you a pm with their contact info. Cheers

[Drumster]

Thanks!

Sent you a pm with their contact info. Cheers

[negativentropy]

If your system is over injecting propane, then it will be thirsty. 3 cfm at max boost with a gradual increase of propane is the benchmark Wayne uses and tunes from there.

Burning through a 5lb tank in under one 70L fill is insane for a 4cyl TD.

First of all, the energy content of 5 lbs of propane vs 60L of diesel are huge - in favor of the diesel, so its not actually that insane to burn through that much.

Secondly, if a little bit of propane gets you better mileage, I fail to see how more propane would give you no mileage gains at all.

Yes there are different systems out there, some more advanced than others, but in the end they all do the same thing: Put propane into the air intake. I cant imagine one system being able to deliver phenomenal mileage gains and an other system none at all.

I think the theory of unburnt diesel being burnt by the propane is false. At least for an L400. I've played with the settings on my system, to the point where I notice no power gain when engaging the propane system, and the tank does last a lot longer this way, but I still dont get any measurable mileage gains.

So say what you will about the benefits of propane, but I actually have it installed and running on my van, and in hindsight I dont think its worth the money and risk.

[jessef]

negativentropy, I can only comment on the experience and longevity of the two rigs I mentioned earlier in this thread.

First hand observer, I know for a fact that a poorly tuned IP 4cyl TD will consume more propane and have a lower HP gain compared to a properly tuned IP 6cyl TD. This was the case with Dave's Hilux which has an almost identical displacement 2.8L turbo diesel as our L400's. He installed the powershot himself and toyed with the settings but could not replicate his dad's 6cyl TD cruiser. He had it setup in AB by a shop and immediately his results changed. They changed the input location as well. That goes to show that not only implementation but set up plays a role in your results.

The same principle applies to a stock TD 4M40. A properly setup (injection pump) and tuned engine will by far outperform and put out better fuel economy than the same engine that is not properly setup and tuned.

I'd recommend to contact Wayne at Luxury Imports. They've been doing PI on JDM diesels for the past decade. Wayne is an honest and straight shooter fellow. If anyone can give you some insight on your particular setup, it may be him.

[negativentropy]

Well I guess its worth while seeing if my recent IP rebuild makes any difference...