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Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:50 pm
by FalcoColumbarius
So... firstly; does the Mighty Whitey Stretch have an immobiliser? Just another of my ponderous thoughts. Other than that I still reckon (secondly) that it's something to do with the alternator (The Alternator. Coming to a theatre near you...) and Thedjjack (I keep wanting to say "Threadjack") is on top of the quarry, as it were, being the solenoid. That's the picture I am painting... 
. Thirdly; what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Falco.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:20 pm
by Manitoba deli
The engine should not have died from an electrical problem while driving. As long as your foot is on the accelerator, or the throttle cable is pulled, the engine shouldn't turn off (even with the key) Everyone with an l300 can try this, with the van running, set the hand throttle and turn off the key. The engine should keep running until the throtle is released. It almost sounds like the engine is turning over with no compression, but hard to say without actually hearing it. Crank it over while watching the pulley's on the front of the engine to see if they are turning or not. If they are, it's not your starter. Try cranking it over with the oil fill cap off to see if the camshaft is turning. If the pulley's are turning, but the cam isn't, the timing belt is busted and it's time for the engine transplant and more power
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:43 pm
by jessef
RichD wrote:jfarsang wrote:I tried it this morning just to put it to rest.
Start up. Disconnect battery. Drive. Keep driving. Keep driving. No problem. Mechanical engine, injection pump, etc.. reconnect battery. Turn off.
I assume that you pulled the ground off the battery negative terminal, removing the battery load from the circuit but leaving the vehicle ground intact and the rest of the circuit hot. The alternator output, and all the vehicle systems like ignition are still connected together. Effectively, the vehicle is running off its own generated power - by design.
You succeeded in testing your alternator, that's about it. (I should also point out that, without the battery to eat the excess current, you could actually damage your vehicle electrics doing this. The battery, even when charged, is a resistor and is going to convert the power to heat.)
As for "how does turning the key turn off shut down the engine immediately", its simple. The motor turns off by opening the ignition circuit. Shutting off fuel feed and stuff like that is a nice touch but the instant stall is cause by lack of ignition. If you repeat experiment above and disconnect the ignition power you will find the truck stalls.
I'm not a mechanic but this is combustion engine basics.
Removed positive.
I don't believe the IP needs 12V to keep running otherwise it will shut off the fuel.
If this was true, then I wouldn't have been able to drive all the way from Kamloops to Vancouver with no battery in the battery tray. Literally.
I did need to hook up the new battery to shut it off though and restart it.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:46 pm
by jessef
RichD wrote:jfarsang wrote:I tried it this morning just to put it to rest.
Start up. Disconnect battery. Drive. Keep driving. Keep driving. No problem. Mechanical engine, injection pump, etc.. reconnect battery. Turn off.
I assume that you pulled the ground off the battery negative terminal, removing the battery load from the circuit but leaving the vehicle ground intact and the rest of the circuit hot. The alternator output, and all the vehicle systems like ignition are still connected together. Effectively, the vehicle is running off its own generated power - by design.
You succeeded in testing your alternator, that's about it. (I should also point out that, without the battery to eat the excess current, you could actually damage your vehicle electrics doing this. The battery, even when charged, is a resistor and is going to convert the power to heat.)
Removed positive. Still kept a kicking.
Blackberry wrote:jfarsang wrote:Start up. Disconnect battery. Drive. Keep driving. Keep driving. No problem. Mechanical engine, injection pump, etc.. reconnect battery. Turn off.
I don't doubt it'll run with no elec. power. So I'm wondering, though, how does turning the key off cause the engine to stop? I recall there's a wire or 2 connected to the IP. So does that power a fuel shut-off solenoid/valve? If so how does that work? Key on = sol. powered = holding valve open...key off = no power to sol. = valve shut? If so then when you drove with no power had you bypassed this system? Or is it some kind of timed system, such as: default is valve open and key off just starts a timer to power sol. for a short time to close valve? (so no power = no (easy) way to shut off engine?)
If this was true, then I wouldn't have been able to drive all the way from Kamloops to Vancouver with no battery in the battery tray. Literally NO BATTERY INSIDE THE TRAY. I even have a mechanic and my girlfriend as witnesses to me yanking the dead battery out while Turtle was still running and then on we went on our merry way.
I didn't do anything to the electrical system. Bone stock I'm assuming. Even stock Mitsu stereo.
I did need to hook up the new battery to shut it off though and restart it when I rolled into canadian tire in Vancouver.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:05 pm
by Mr. Flibble
jfarsang wrote:
If this was true, then I wouldn't have been able to drive all the way from Kamloops to Vancouver with no battery in the battery tray. Literally NO BATTERY INSIDE THE TRAY. I even have a mechanic and my girlfriend as witnesses to me yanking the dead battery out while Turtle was still running and then on we went on our merry way.
I didn't do anything to the electrical system. Bone stock I'm assuming. Even stock Mitsu stereo.
I did need to hook up the new battery to shut it off though and restart it when I rolled into canadian tire in Vancouver.
I have done this in both my old Hyundai Excel and 1989 Toyota 4Runner. I bump-started them, then ran them sans-battery for a Canadian Tire run. They were gasoline engines.
The only way to truly verify this would be to cut the alternator belt while the battery was removed and the engine running as you can't bump start an automatic.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:11 pm
by thedjjack
jfarsang wrote:
If this was true, then I wouldn't have been able to drive all the way from Kamloops to Vancouver with no battery in the battery tray. Literally NO BATTERY INSIDE THE TRAY. I even have a mechanic and my girlfriend as witnesses to me yanking the dead battery out while Turtle was still running and then on we went on our merry way.
I didn't do anything to the electrical system. Bone stock I'm assuming. Even stock Mitsu stereo.
I did need to hook up the new battery to shut it off though and restart it when I rolled into canadian tire in Vancouver.
Did you take out the alternator? Then you had power. Did you try turning it off without the batteries installed (interested to know if the switch needs constant power or not, I have not found a wiring diagram showing the circuit)
I just started the old L300 up took let it warm up brought the RPM up to 2,200 rpm turned off the key and my motor shut down instantly. I suspect if your motor keeps running but rough the IP is sucking fuel through a weak shut off solenoid (not good for the IP pump I would suspect).
Cheers
David
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:31 pm
by RichD
This thread is getting as long as the Super Exceeded.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:40 pm
by jessef
Nice
Where is he btw ?
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:00 pm
by FalcoColumbarius
Here's something that might help from 13B-3 of the Fuel Delivery Manual:
FUEL INJECTION PUMP CHECK
- FUEL CUT VALVE CONTROLLER OPERATION CHECK
When a sound scope is held against the fuel cut valve controller and the ignition switch is turned to ÒN`, check that the sound of the valve operating can be heard.
If no operating sound can be heard, check the immobilizer system while referring to GROUP 54.
- INJECTION TIMING CONTROL SOLENOID COIL RESISTANCE CHECK
Measure the resistance between the injection pump connector terminal No. 4 (injection timing control solenoid terminal) and the pump body.
Standard value: 8 ~ 10 ohms (at 20*C)
- INJECTION TIMING CONTROL SOLENOID OPERATION CHECK
Check that sound of the injection timing control solenoid can be heard when connecting the injection pump connector terminal No. 4 (injection timing control solenoid terminal) and the battery positive terminal.
Perhaps this will help.
Falco.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:03 pm
by tonydca
jaggedfish wrote:... low voltage caused by the electrical problem MAY not spin the starter fast enough to cause the throw bearing to throw and engage the starter with the motor - I don't know how likely this is to be a realistic cause but may be.
X2. My bet is loose wire on starter or related component is drawing down the 12V low enough to drop out the fuel cutoff solenoid. Check all of the big cables feeding your starter/glowplug assemblies to see if any have rubbed/chafed.
And if the fuel cutoff solenoid is a single-coil spring return type (energize a coil to open it, and when 12V is lost, a mechanical spring closes the valve), then yes losing 12V will kill the engine, so it won't run without one of at least alternator or battery.
Some vehicles might have a "latching" type of solenoid (one coil energized to open the valve, and a different one energized to close it), in which case the engine will run without *any* source of 12V, but I don't think this is the case with Delicas.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:10 pm
by lopar
RichD wrote:I should also point out that, without the battery to eat the excess current, you could actually damage your vehicle electrics doing this.
yeah...... just not true... not going there
the whole battery disconnected thing killing a vehicle or not is completely dependant on the vehicles wiring. The "main" difference between a generator and an alternator is an alternator requires current to excite the windings(vice p. magnets). Some vehicles are wired in such a way that once the alternator starts outputting current, it can basically feed itself and sustain output.
Even diesels will differ....... true they do not require electricity to produce combustion, but kill the computer and it may turn off some kill solenoid or fuel or something else.
So now that we have virtually highjacked the thread to bitch about alternator theory...........
Any progress on getting the deli back on the road? meter readings? more info?
lots of bitching to sort through for any real info, lol
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:26 pm
by mararmeisto
jfarsang wrote:Nice
Where is he btw ?
Probably off checking his van - we gave him enough to look at!
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:10 am
by Super Exceeded
Manitoba Deli nailed it, With help from my new friend we found the issue, I blew both the front belts...No electrical issues at all, sorry guys, but the guessing was fun to read and very informative.
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:19 am
by nxski
Glad to hear that you got it all worked out! Let's hope for no more surprises like that...
Re: She just died!! Now it won't start! Any ideas
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:31 am
by jessef
Super Exceeded wrote:Manitoba Deli nailed it, With help from my new friend we found the issue, I blew both the front belts...No electrical issues at all, sorry guys, but the guessing was fun to read and very informative.
jfarsang wrote:It just died. That could be lack of fuel (clogged injectors, inj pump, fuel filter, lines ...). Could be completely clogged air filter lack of air (unlikely). Hopefully not, but the timing belt could have skipped and thrown your timing out of whack.
These things will cause it to stall/stop while driving and then not be able to start it again.
So it was the timing/balance belts.
How much damage ?