Old member, tough decisions - comparion between L300 & L400

[mararmeisto]

So, this posh L400, what about computer modules. I love my LACK of Computer Crap in L300. L400 stuff such as Shift on fly, temperature digital readers for heaters and ac; more power; etc -- sounds like computer modules. I like the basic fixability of the TardisDeli. Christine.

Sheesh Christine - sounds like the Luddite in you is rising to the surface.

Although I would tend to agree: the less electrons running around inside 'controlling' the drivetrain, the better I like it. Unless, of course, it's an electric motor and then there should be electrons aplenty!

[jessef]

This seems like a good place to ask.

Going to buy a Delica this year. Just deciding which one. A L300 or L400. Checked out a couple L300's at Samurai Trucks and the wife just loved them. But after checking online and seeing the LWB 400 with the starlite roof. WOW that's cool. We both hate the looks of the L4 of course but for everyday soccer mom use (this would be it's primary purpose in life ) it looks like a winner. The more room for family holidays the better.

Most of my questions have been answered reading theis thread except mileage. How does the new one compare to the old??
Also engine mods on each. What are the common horsepower fixes on each unit that doesn't affect reliability?
What are the common mechanical failures to each also?
Is the fuel pump (high pressure) on the L400 mechanical?
Which one is easier to work on? From pictures it looks like the L4. Just remove the CAC to access the LHS of the engine. Am I wrong?


Waiting for answer's so I can put in my order. Really no bad choices as far as I can see.

1. Be prepared to throw your soccer-mom mentality out the door. They look different, unique, more menacing and larger in person. They have one of the best transfer cases on the planet as mentioned before. Not many vehicles (especially over 10 years old) have a shift option from 2wd-Awd-4wd-4wdlocked. They can actually push you back into your seat when you push the pedal to the floor. You can break the tires loose on dry pavement and you can pass a rig doing 120 without breaking a sweat.

2. Room. There is lots. The layout has been improved on (ie. the rear bench seat is a 50/50 split that seats three adults or two x-large adults. In a pinch both 50/50 splits can be flipped up vertically to clear the whole rear end for cargo). Captain's chairs can rotate 360, flip up and slide a long ways from front to rear. Front seats are comfy and you can walk in between front/rear.

3. So far I've gone through 4 tanks. 50/50 city/hwy mixed. I'm averaging 12L/100km and I purposely used my foot as a large brick (ie. accelerating fast/passing on the highway, etc..) I haven't babied the throttle. I'm assuming I can squeeze out another 2-3L if I'm driving around 90 km/h instead of 120.

4. The best and relatively only safe mod to increase HP : 2.5" full length exhaust, blank EGR plate, swap rubber for steel/ss tubing intercooler <-> turbo.

5. Same mechanical failures as an L300 (IP seal leaking, typical ujoints, brakes, everything that's normal maintenance on any NA or Import vehicle). Having a timing chain is a plus. You can hear when it's on its way out as opposed to a timing belt that goes without warning.

6. Fuel pump (Injection pump) is the same as the L300. Mechanical.

7. So far it's been easier to access everything on the L400 compared to the L300 but when it comes down to it, both are the same to work on. The fuel filter is a pain to change on the L400 compared to the L300 but the IP, master cyl, cyl head, etc.. are all easy to access on the L400 compared to the L300. Give and Take.

Like I've said for years. These 'Delicas' are not as unique as people may believe.

They are like any other vehicle in north america. They just look a little different, have some weird options. But when it comes down to it, a brake job is a brake job, etc...

We kept the LWB L400. It's officially ours now.

Turtle will present himself with a new owner soon.

[maniac mechanic]

Thanks for the prompt reply. The L400 is definitely the way we're leaning. I don't careif it looks like a windstar from a distance. Side by each there is no mistaking one for the other.

So does the L400 have a timing chain instead of belt?
What does IP stand for?

[konadog]

Yep - L-400 has a timing chain and not a belt - About the only thing better about the L-400's IMO - They just don't have any charm... IP stands for injection pump (fuel pump). Good luck in your hunt!

[jessef]

Yep - L-400 has a timing chain and not a belt - About the only thing better about the L-400's IMO

After driving an L400 straight for over 2 weeks and logging 5 full tanks of diesel :

All based on stock Delica's.

L400 better's list (than L300) -

All-wheel drive + 4WD unlocked + 4WD locked
No auto hubs to fail
Powerful A/C system in cab/passenger areas
Powerful engine = acceleration/top speed @ equivalent mpg as 2.5
50/50 split 3-person bench in the rear
vertical folding bench in the rear
folding/360*/sliding captain's chairs
2x2 feet of extra space (no engine hump)
cooler area under your bum when you're driving
quieter engine noise in cab
quieter wind/travel noise in cab
Cup holders
Front to rear walking open area
Long wheelbase L400 is 1.3 feet longer + 2x4.5 sq feet of extra space where the engine hump resides
Roughly 2/3's more space underneath the rear of the L400 behind the rear axle of usable space
Larger axles, larger differentials, larger gears, larger brakes
4-wheel disc brakes
23 degrees less approach angle (better)
MPG appears to be the same between 2.8 and 2.5 but I've been flooring it everywhere and driving 120 on the highway. If I would do the same with my L300, then it would get horrendous mpg.

The only thing I did not like (did being past) was the looks. It grows on you, just like the L300's.

I remember when I first saw an L300. I thought it was the coolest but ugliest vehicle.

I have the same feelings about the L400. Cool but weird.

And of course, just like the L300's, they look much better in person.

Those of you who know me, know that I don't settle for crap and the L400 is definitely not that.

It's improved almost everything I could think of over the L300.

In fact, it just plain ol' reminds me of my long lost Montero I drove years ago and our Pajero.

Basically, the creature comforts of a 'newer' vehicle with offroad core capabilities.

What I found funny is two different people who don't know each other but have seen all of my JDM's and the L400 both said the same thing :

Hey.. you L400 looks 90-2000ish while your L300 looks 80-ish.

Well.. I loved the 80's.

In a perfect world, I would keep both but alas, we don't live in a perfect world.

So we kept the one that suits us.

Mostly for the reasons I listed above.

a LOT of improvements. Many that are hard to not overlook just based on the L300 'character looks' alone.

[konadog]

Good post jfarsang - btw, I still love all you L-400 drivers

[Weasel]

Very interesting thread, thanks for all the details. I've been lusting after superselect, more power, and the LWB option, but see the turning radius of the L300 as a fairly major advantage...

Saw your thread on ExPo, wondering if the concerns you had about the L400s have been alleviated after more time with them, or if they're still on the list of downsides and just countered by the positives you list.

The L400 has some disadvantages compared to an L300 =

Weak subframe metal
poor departure angle
less than 1/2 articulation front & rear

I pounded my L300 into the ground 4x4ing and I don't think the L400 would fare as well in the places I've gone to and will look forward to going to in the future.

I've owned Montero/Pajero's and love the superselect tcase.

But the overall L400 body is very long, tall and would need two or three times as much invested to make it equal to a good solid 4x4 worthy L300.

[jessef]

Very interesting thread, thanks for all the details. I've been lusting after superselect, more power, and the LWB option, but see the turning radius of the L300 as a fairly major advantage...

Saw your thread on ExPo, wondering if the concerns you had about the L400s have been alleviated after more time with them, or if they're still on the list of downsides and just countered by the positives you list.

The L400 has some disadvantages compared to an L300 =

Weak subframe metal
poor departure angle
less than 1/2 articulation front & rear

I pounded my L300 into the ground 4x4ing and I don't think the L400 would fare as well in the places I've gone to and will look forward to going to in the future.

I've owned Montero/Pajero's and love the superselect tcase.

But the overall L400 body is very long, tall and would need two or three times as much invested to make it equal to a good solid 4x4 worthy L300.

They have. I was originally writing about the series 2 which has a very low body/plastic molding on them.

With the one I have, I have the same articulation front/rear and a better approach angle.

Subframe will be strengthened

[konadog]

For me it all boils down to the cab-over. No cab-over = No charm - and I don't wnat any more power either - also a charm killer... Ah well, enjoy your L-400's everyone who is bent that way, I'm staying up front and drivin' sloooow

[Green1]

after seeing the L400 in person, I must say it's not as ugly as it looks in pictures... much less "windstar" than I thought it would be.

Advantages:
- more power (would be nice not to be down at 50km/hr on the coquihalla)
- possibly better approach angle (I know he said he measured it, but without knowing how exactly the torsion bars etc were set up, it's hard to say for sure, it looks like it might be closer than he lets on)
- more power (would be nice not to be down at 70km/hr on rogers pass)
- walk-through ability from front to rear (some people may find that nice, I suspect thought that most people will fill that space with some form of console)
- more power (would be nice not to be down at 90km/hr on the Trans Canada)
- night mode on rear crystal-lite roof (can choose red light instead of white to preserve your night vision)
- more power (would be nice not to be down at 95km/hr on the QEII)
- ability to drive in 4x4 on dry surfaces (though why you'd need to I'm not sure)
- more power (would be nice not to feel the deceleration on every hill)
- timing chain instead of timing belt
- have I mentioned more power?

That said, there are some drawbacks:
- worse departure angle
- significantly smaller inside compared to an L300 (long wheelbase L400 is roughly the same inside as the short wheelbase L300 (minus the engine hump) they are also narrower inside and although the middle row seats fold up, it doesn't seem that you gain any extra space by actually doing so...)
- significantly longer outside (the engine is up front)
- less "rugged" off-road
- worse 4x4 design for serious offroading (the centre differential is just one more thing to go wrong, and there's no way to lock the centre diff unless you are in low-range)
- worse visibility on the front end (the steep hood makes it hard to tell where the front of the vehicle is from inside)
- worse fuel economy (a result of the higher power and larger engine)
- no cool-box option (say it isn't so!)
- the UK site seems to indicate that the injection pump is much less reliable, and the 4wd system seems to often get confused or "stuck" in one mode or other, in fact the early L400s were known to have several "teething" problems, the general advice over on that side of the pond was "don't bother with the original L400s, go with the second generation instead (not an option for us yet)

To be perfectly honest, I'm torn... I'm not sure which one to choose next...

[jessef]

That said, there are some drawbacks:
- worse departure angle

I took a straight edge and measured a stock L300 and L400 (thanks for the guinea pigs Mardy).

The 400 wins by a longshot. You can even see the difference plain as day without glasses.

L300 = worse departure angle

- significantly smaller inside compared to an L300 (long wheelbase L400 is roughly the same inside as the short wheelbase L300 (minus the engine hump) they are also narrower inside and although the middle row seats fold up, it doesn't seem that you gain any extra space by actually doing so...)

The SWB L400 is only 2 inches shorter for usable space in the back than the L300 for length from the driver's seat. The LWB L400 is 18 inches longer. The engine hump takes away a lot of space.

The L400 downside is the corner roof arches at the back lift gate. They are narrower than the L300's. Interior width is the same give or take .25 of an inch.

The rear seats fold up vertically out of the way and the captain's chairs turn sideways and flip up so you can keep all of the seating in the rear and use the full length of the L400 cargo area at the same time.

That is a huge plus for anyone carrying anything and not having to remove the L300 bench or chairs.

- significantly longer outside (the engine is up front)

Significant is relative to each person. I'll trade significant for better approach angles anyday.

- less "rugged" off-road

Nope. I punished mine on the way back from Osoyoos on the first 1/4 whipsaw from princeton yesterday. L400 approach angle made my day.

- worse 4x4 design for serious offroading (the centre differential is just one more thing to go wrong, and there's no way to lock the centre diff unless you are in low-range)

Wrong on both counts.

Lockable 4H & 4L just like the L300. But you get a nice little extra on the L400 - superselect (japan) or active-trac (usa) models.

I went through a massive downpour/lightening storm going down manning park pass and the road had streams of water running down sections. Switched into all-wheel drive mode and immediately the front end was more responsive in corners and the rear end wasn't as sketchy. There is no AWD option on L300's.

People that either don't understand or have never driven an AWD vehicle in conditions where that feature adds to safety handling of a vehicle won't know until they do it. I'm sure most of you have either heard from a subaru owner or driven subaru's in our climate.. snow/slush/ice.. I haven't met a subaru owner who doesn't swear by that awd system. Especially when it gets icy or rain-washed slick out like it did with me on the highway.

modes :

2WD (rear wheel drive - center diff unlocked)

AWD (33/67 split two thirds of the torque is channelled to the rear axle. - center diff unlocked) like a Subaru/VW syncro/Audi Quattro

4H is a part-time four-wheel drive mode using a viscous coupling unit (VCU) and center differential to direct drive to the front wheels when the rear axle loses traction, and is capable of handling a wide variety of road conditions and speeds.

4WD High (33/67 split two thirds of the torque is channelled to the rear axle. - center diff locked) like a Jeep/L300/Explorer/etc..)

4HLc locks the center differential to provide extra traction for sandy, snowy or poorly surfaced roads in "high range" mode

4WD Low (33/67 split two thirds of the torque is channelled to the rear axle. - center diff locked - low ratio) like a Jeep/L300/Explorer/etc..)

4LLc, the "low range" mode, also offers a much lower gearing, providing the maximum amount of traction.

Best 4x4 design for serious offroading. Search superselect/active-trac + rally racing/offroading.

There is a reason why Mitsubishi still uses the same superselect transfercase in their offroad and rally rigs for the past 18 years. They are bulletproof.

- worse visibility on the front end (the steep hood makes it hard to tell where the front of the vehicle is from inside)

Agreed. Visibility on the L400 is horrible compared to the L300. L300 = no blindspot if you have all your mirrors in check. L400 you have to drive like any normal truck or van.

- worse fuel economy (a result of the higher power and larger engine)

I'm on my 7th tank of diesel. Last 2 were 80% veg burning non-stop on the highway at 120km/hr average speed.

11.2 L/100km

Let's see an L300 beat than doing 120 uphill on the coq.

- no cool-box option (say it isn't so!)

We rarely used ours because Maryna kept resting her toes on the switch and accidentally turning it to 'hot', thus baking any food we had chilling in there. Made for some fun after-camping cleaning.

- the UK site seems to indicate that the injection pump is much less reliable, and the 4wd system seems to often get confused or "stuck" in one mode or other, in fact the early L400s were known to have several "teething" problems, the general advice over on that side of the pond was "don't bother with the original L400s, go with the second generation instead (not an option for us yet)

Or you can go to the oz delicaclub and get an opposite response putting the series 2 as a soccermom delica and series 1 as an offroad contender.

Forums are great for information, but when it comes down to it, if the internet didn't exist, people would still own all of these vehicles.

I've been waiting for the L400 because it's essentially the same vehicle as our Pajero.

I was skeptical at first until I started driving one. And real driving, not 'test drive' dealer driving.

When we owned our Pajero, the AWD and extra comforts/additions were appreciated and used a lot with us.

The L400 is different than the L300.

They are plain as day, different vehicles and should not really be compared to since they are based on different frames/drivelines.

I miss the L300 visibility and cabover aspect but after throwing the L400 around off the pavement, then hoping on the highway at 120 with the ability to pass, cool a/c, creature comforts of a newer vehicle and stares from both sides of the road, I just like the L400.

With that said, there wasn't any L300's that I would compare to my Turtle. It's definitely a character and has been reliable and great since we've owned him. We just made a decision and can't keep both.

Everyone on here has a unique Mitsu.

[Green1]

I stand by ALL of my points.
The L400 SWB is not long enough inside for me, the L300 SWB has over 8' of length back there, for an L400 I'd have to go to a LWB version to get the same length.

The 4wd system, I may be wrong in that you can lock the centre diff in 4High (though I'm fairly certain I didn't see that option on the shifter knob when I looked, and I DID look!) but even saying that, the whole fact that there is a centre diff to lock makes it a less reliable 4x4 system then that of an L300, there is no need to lock the centre diff on an L300 because it simply doesn't have any. The offroading abilities of the 2 vehicles has been done to death on every Delica forum I've ever seen, and the L300 ALWAYS wins. (talk to mysterymachine for more information here, but there's a reason that "mud monkey" is an L300) I'm not saying the L400 is bad, or making any comparison to other offroad vehicles, I'm just saying the L300 is better in this department.

As for departure angle, the SWB L400 is probably the same as the SWB L300, however as pointed out above, you need an LWB L400 to get the same interior useable space, and therefore you loose departure angle, as well as the all important wheelbase length causing problems in the middle half way between the wheels (I think it's called break-over angle?

I can see advantages to both, vehicles, and honestly I'm not sure which one I will go with next, but pretending that the L400 is better in every respect and ignoring it's disadvantages does nobody any favours.

[jessef]

I stand by ALL of my points.
The L400 SWB is not long enough inside for me, the L300 SWB has over 8' of length back there, for an L400 I'd have to go to a LWB version to get the same length.

The 4wd system, I may be wrong in that you can lock the centre diff in 4High (though I'm fairly certain I didn't see that option on the shifter knob when I looked, and I DID look!) but even saying that, the whole fact that there is a centre diff to lock makes it a less reliable 4x4 system then that of an L300, there is no need to lock the centre diff on an L300 because it simply doesn't have any. The offroading abilities of the 2 vehicles has been done to death on every Delica forum I've ever seen, and the L300 ALWAYS wins. (talk to mysterymachine for more information here, but there's a reason that "mud monkey" is an L300) I'm not saying the L400 is bad, or making any comparison to other offroad vehicles, I'm just saying the L300 is better in this department.

As for departure angle, the SWB L400 is probably the same as the SWB L300, however as pointed out above, you need an LWB L400 to get the same interior useable space, and therefore you loose departure angle, as well as the all important wheelbase length causing problems in the middle half way between the wheels (I think it's called break-over angle?

I can see advantages to both, vehicles, and honestly I'm not sure which one I will go with next, but pretending that the L400 is better in every respect and ignoring it's disadvantages does nobody any favours.

The 'lock' is not a button.

The shifter is mechanical and the 'lockable' feature is not a lock ring.

The transfer case between the L300 and the L400 are virtually identical with the difference being a viscous coupling added inline.

The shifting between 2WD - 4WD - 4WDL is the same on both.

Approach angle is better on the L400. Departure angle is much worse, especially on the LWB L400. But that is solved with a 2" lift or larger tires.

As for which is better offroad, that's a loaded question. I've gone places where I've seen a 70's cadillac and could not wrap my head around the fact that we needed 4wd locked to get to the same place. So that 'which is better offroad' is moot.

I took both of mine offroad. L300 lifted and L400 lifted and was able go over and through the same trails and sections. The L400 LWB, I needed to do a few extra turns or wider arcs because of the longer wheelbase, but in the end, it felt just the same when I started and finished. Had fun. And I beat on my vehicles, so I can say that the L400 can take a lot of punishment.

The L400 has more ground clearance than the L300 with the same size tires on both.

As long as the flex on the front and rear can be maxed out without rubbing, the clearance is definitely higher on the L400.

The driveline on the L400 is tucked up nicely, whereas the L300 transfer case and front rads are exposed, something I've been meaning to armor for quite some time.

So, to sum it up. Unless you've driven both offroad, you just can't go based on forums.

Each person has different techniques when driving offroad and around or over obstacles. Some safer than others, while some just shoot through anything without no regard.

You can take an inexperienced drivenr in an L300 and barely get off pavement compared to an experienced driver in an L400 and go all the way to their destination.

Doesn't matter. They both are great vehicles.

The L400 has a lot of upgrades over the L300. A big difference that hasn't been mentioned is the axle weight ratio between front - rear.

The L300 is nose heavy. To balance it out and have it drive safely and comfortably on slick surfaces without the rearend kicking out, you need to add a lot of weight. Without adding the weight over the rear axle, driving slowly or more cautiously works just as well.

The L400 is nicely balanced between front/rear. Another thing to consider.

Not everything is better. There are a lot of things about the L300 that our L400 doesn't have which I'm sad about.

Lots of room for shifting things and people around :




And my favorite :

[delicat]

The L300 is nose heavy. To balance it out and have it drive safely and comfortably on slick surfaces without the rearend kicking out, you need to add a lot of weight. Without adding the weight over the rear axle, driving slowly or more cautiously works just as well.

I like that heavy nose on the 300 'cause I always end up having so much crap in the back (tools, recovery gears, camping gears, food, beer...) that it actually ends up being well balanced. The 400 would end up being a "large derriere"

As for departure angle, yes the 400 would be better as the wheels are closer to the front but then with the 300 you have amazing viewing angle which the 400 can't beat. Also, a properly set up 300 can end up with pretty decent departure angle.

eurotrip_62.jpg (131.96 KiB) Viewed 10773 times

See what I mean...

But as great as they are, they are still quite limited for serious offroading. But hey, you can bring all your friends along and their gears!

(I wonder if that yellow van can turn it's front wheels?)

[jessef]

Probably not but I love the hightop