Injector Exchange

[thedjjack]

since everyone is talking about engine damage and IP damage, can someone possibly list or explain what kind of damage you suspect may happen if the wrong injector is used that has the same spray pattern and break pressure.

My question is do they have the same breaking pressure and spray pattern?????

[Diver]

There's more to a diesel fuel injector than simply spray pattern and cracking pressure. This information is provided in manuals so that injectors can be tested and set up correctly, it's not there so that you can find two injectors for two different engines and interchange them just because those pieces of information happen to be the same.
The obvious difference between these injectors is going to be in delivery volume. A 2.5 litre 85hp engine does NOT require the same amount of fuel as a 2.8 litre 125hp engine. The size of the the hole in the nozzle through which the fuel passes will be larger for the engine that requires more fuel. Here's an extreme example. A 1 litre car engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. A 12 litre truck engine has injectors with a 10 degree spray pattern and a 150 bar cracking pressure. Assuming you could thread them into into either vehicle's head, do you think you could interchange them? What do you think might happen if you tried? What do you think would happen to the truck's injector pump as it tries on one stroke to push all that diesel through the tiny hole of the 1 litre car's injector?In the world of fuel injection there is no such thing as 'close enough'. Why do you think there are thousands of different types of injector? Has the motor industry missed a trick for the last hundred years or so by developing all these different ones when in reality just one would do for every engine? Someone should tell them.....

Volume is definately an issue but i think your comparison is as you stated an unlikely and extreme comparison that does not stand in this arguement. a 1 liter and a 12 liter comparison is irrelevant and does not make sense.

A diesel motor can easily gain over 30 horsepower just by cranking the fuel and opening up the air using the same injectors. so comparing a 85hp and 125hp is again not that big of deal. if your injectors are giving out too much vloume per stroke you can easily compensate by adjusting the IP fueling.

your IP pumps out way more fuel than your injectors actually use, and adding an injector that outputs more volume within reason will not affect your IP other than running too rich. and if your injectors are the other way and running too lean because they cannot provide enough fuel i think the results will be lack of power.

since everyone is talking about engine damage and IP damage, can someone possibly list or explain what kind of damage you suspect may happen if the wrong injector is used that has the same spray pattern and break pressure.

Edit:

a common conversion to a diesel is to change the nozzles to increase volume of fuel delivered to gain more power when doing performance upgrades to the motor. larger nozzles will give more fueling with a shorter duration.

It's perfectly relevant because it highlights that there is more to injectors than spray pattern and break pressue with an extreme example being used for those who are having difficulty understanding why you can't take an injector from a completely different vehicle and expect it to work the same as the correct one. If it doesn't 'make sense' to you, it's because you don't understand, not that the statement was irrelevant.
Likely problems from using incorrect fuelling components? Lack of power, poor economy, poor emissions, overheating, raised exhaust temperatures, head gasket failure, cracked cylinder head, big end failure, broken pistons, worn injection pump, blown injection pump seals.
Is that enough? In 28 years of being a mechanic, I have NEVER come across anyone who was so desperate to use fuel injectors from a completely different manufacturer and engine that they would risk completely screwing their vehicle up. Why? What are trying to gain? If you have problems with your injectors get them re-nozzled and re-calibrated with the correct parts! Why on earth wouldn't you do that?

[rezdiver]

It's perfectly relevant because it highlights that there is more to injectors than spray pattern and break pressue with an extreme example being used for those who are having difficulty understanding why you can't take an injector from a completely different vehicle and expect it to work the same as the correct one. If it doesn't 'make sense' to you, it's because you don't understand, not that the statement was irrelevant.
Likely problems from using incorrect fuelling components? Lack of power, poor economy, poor emissions, overheating, raised exhaust temperatures, head gasket failure, cracked cylinder head, big end failure, broken pistons, worn injection pump, blown injection pump seals.
Is that enough? In 28 years of being a mechanic, I have NEVER come across anyone who was so desperate to use fuel injectors from a completely different manufacturer and engine that they would risk completely screwing their vehicle up. Why? What are trying to gain? If you have problems with your injectors get them re-nozzled and re-calibrated with the correct parts! Why on earth wouldn't you do that?

apparently i am clueless and the engine is going to totally self distruct.
Edit:
and there is no one out there in the VW, GM, Cummings, etc.. communities doing diesel performance upgrades to increase fueling to gain power through different sized injectors and nozzles.

Just out of curiosity what do you think happens to your injector spray volume, spray pattern, injection pump timing, and fuel rate when you run WVO in your tank?

I am not condoning nor condeming what Steven is doing but lets be a little openminded and see if it works instead of putting the fear of life into people..

[Rising Sun Auto Import]

Just to clarify,
Hyundai OEM injectors are coming from Bosch, and Mitsubishi OEMs are coming from Bosch as well.
As I noted, late model 4D56 injector and early model 4M40 have same injection spray angle degree ( 10 ), spray pattern,same throttle type nozzle and same holder type (screw on ) and same breaking pressure ( 15,000-16,000kpa, 150-160kg/cm2, 2133-2276psi ).
They are different from early model 4D56 injectors.

In auto industry, we can’t deny using replacement parts for all repair needs.
Rebuilt is just a rebuilt.
We need to explore more good replacement parts as much as possible for Canadian delica’s running good on the road.
Mitsubishi OEM are too expensive to approach.

Steven

[nxski]

I thought WVO was harder on the ip!? No idea about injectors but has anyone driven on WVO long enough to state that it wont cause premature engine failure, or alternatively will elongate engine lifespan?

I'm of the mind that I don't want to use something that isn't proven. If customers are told that a component is being tested on their vehicle and they're ok with it great. Personally I wouldn't like to be a guinne pig unless I had a lifetime warranty though.

[psilosin]

I'm of the mind that I don't want to use something that isn't proven. If customers are told that a component is being tested on their vehicle and they're ok with it great. Personally I wouldn't like to be a guinne pig unless I had a lifetime warranty though.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit in the pioneering department Nxski...I think you are the official Delica.ca 'how much can I add to my roof rack before I either take flight or tip over' guinea pig.

[nxski]

I'm of the mind that I don't want to use something that isn't proven. If customers are told that a component is being tested on their vehicle and they're ok with it great. Personally I wouldn't like to be a guinne pig unless I had a lifetime warranty though.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit in the pioneering department Nxski...I think you are the official Delica.ca 'how much can I add to my roof rack before I either take flight or tip over' guinea pig.

Fair enough, granted I already need some body work done so I don't mind experimenting there. Also, 155km/hr is when she starts to hop as if trying to take off.

[Diver]

WVO certainly is harder on the IP. The difficulty lies in getting the viscosity down as the extra pressure is not good for the pump. Serious users over here in the UK are now factoring in pump rebuilds every x miles. It's perfectly possible that using non-standard injectors could put similar pressure upon the pump.
I really don't see the need to be messing around with Hyundai injectors. While I never suggested that the engine would 'self destruct', any one of that list of issues is a potential when using untested, non-standard equipment. If you look at an exploded diagram of the two injectors in question, the internals are completely different. Spray pattern and break pressure is not all that injectors are about. After all you can make virtually any injector any break pressure you like by changing the shims. Fuel quantity, pulse and cavitation issues are not dictated by spray pattern or break pressure. Injectors don't even need changing. The nozzle is what wears eventually (but 150,000 km+ eventually), the body of the injector will go on for ever. If they are not functioning well, new nozzles and calibration and good as new. It's not even expensive to do. You would only replace the whole injector if you broke or lost it. So why risk a whole host of potential problems by fitting the wrong part?
If you needed a set of spark plugs, would you just buy the cheapest with the same reach and gap or would you buy the correct ones for your vehicle?

[rezdiver]

Diver, those are good points.

[Diver]

Thanks Reza, I don't mean to offend anyone but I place huge importance in reliability and needlessly going off reservation is rarely conducive. And this is coming from someone who is typing this from the back of his Deli because he fitted new alternator belts 2000kms ago one of which snapped and wrapped itself around the other derailing it about four hours ago. I've managed to limp on what remains of the second belt to the nearest city and am parked up 4 miles away from a Mitsubishi dealer and here i'll be spending the night while praying they have stock in the morning. I'm 150 miles from home, but at least in civilisation and not stranded up some logging trail. The moral? Buy the best quality parts that were designed for the job. I bought cheap belts (from a company called Milners in the UK who are a major seller of parts) as it was convenient and easy with next day delivery to my door. Mistake. (Every word 100% true unfortunately!)

[thedjjack]

Just to clarify,
Hyundai OEM injectors are coming from Bosch, and Mitsubishi OEMs are coming from Bosch as well.
As I noted, late model 4D56 injector and early model 4M40 have same injection spray angle degree ( 10 ), spray pattern,same throttle type nozzle and same holder type (screw on ) and same breaking pressure ( 15,000-16,000kpa, 150-160kg/cm2, 2133-2276psi ).
They are different from early model 4D56 injectors.

In auto industry, we can’t deny using replacement parts for all repair needs.
Rebuilt is just a rebuilt.
We need to explore more good replacement parts as much as possible for Canadian delica’s running good on the road.
Mitsubishi OEM are too expensive to approach.

Steven

No offence but a person with self interest posting numbers and facts such as all parts are made by Bosch does not meet the my requirement for published source.

Can you please post a link to Hyundai's SPECS (full specifications would be great thread lengths volumes applications etc.) on a company web page or something (published by Hyundai) and evidence that both parts come from Bosch made to the exact same standards. or documentation that these injectors are intended to be used in the 4M40 or independent injector shop that tests both injectors and says they are equal.

Given the current evidence there is no way I would personally run these in a 4M40. Mitsubishi OEM are way cheaper then a motor rebuild (plus stock plugs can be rebuilt as mentioned). Overhauled injectors are the standard in the diesel industry.

Thanks

[pajerry]

What I don't understand is, why the frick would a dealer install the wrong part unless it was no longer made, or impossible to source??

Also, Falco I believe if you were to check the IP for Tinykiss and RSI you may find that they are indeed one and the same. I would bet money on it. Thanks for the Saturday morning entertainment LOL>

[FalcoColumbarius]

.....Also, Falco I believe if you were to check the IP for Tinykiss and RSI you may find that they are indeed one and the same. I would bet money on it. Thanks for the Saturday morning entertainment LOL>

How much?

Whenever there is an accusation of this nature it is Basic protocol that I check the IP. Tiny Kiss has been a member for two and some years, he has to this moment 27 posts to his credit, his writing style is completely different from Steven's and his IP addy is in Nova Scotia. Thank you for your concern as it is important that these things are checked but rest assured that TK is a bona fide member and not a finger puppet.

Falco.

[rezdiver]

this topic is going to go sideways very soon. to keep on track lets do this, forget Steven, any dealer controversy, and any questions regarding "why".

lets say I personally would like to use these injectors in my vehicle. Why? Just because.
compare the injectors without all the hearsay and BS and figure out if it will work. If you dont care and are not curious to see the results, then just stop posting.

[jessef]

Speculation in testing this Hyundai injector and nozzle in a 4M40 is the only consistent thing most agree on. Can't do much except for wait a year or two and start looking at RSI and manitoba deli's customers fuel system, ip, injectors and head.

Until then, it's just a never ending back and forth tennis match.

Below is about the only data from the 4D56T manual (images) and the quoted data (source?) that is available or at least published and researched.

You might have missed there are two different injectors that were used in L300 ( 4D56T ) based on manufacture’s year.
1986/4 – 1994/5 ( MD103301 ) ; 12,000-13,000 kpa or 120-130kg/cm3
1994/6 – 2004/4 ( MD196607 ) ; 15,000-16,000 kpa or 150-160kg/cm3[/b]

We know part mumber for 4M40 injector is ME200204.

MD196607 ( late 4D56, currently available in Korea ) and ME200204 ( mechanical 4M40 ) all have same injection spray angle degree ( 10 ), same throttle type nozzle and same holder type (screw on ) and same breaking power ( 15,000-16,000kpa, 150-160kg/cm3, 2133-2276psi ).

his writing style is completely different from Steven's

I am surprised Mardy or CVI don't know this as I have seen people claiming they are the best, but as you pointed out the UK doesn't know Hyundai products that well.

MD196607 ( late 4D56, currently available in Korea ) and ME200204 (mechanical 4M40) all have the same injection spray angle degree (10), the same throttle type nozzle, the same holder type (screw on), and same breaking power (15,000-16,000kpa, 150-160kg/cm2, 2133-2276psi).

Hopefully this helps...

The thing is they did not know that 4D56 delica has two different injectors depending on model year.

1986/4 – 1994/5 ( MD103301 ) ; 12,000-13,000 kpa or 120-130kg/cm2
1994/6 – 2004/4 ( MD196607 ) ; 15,000-16,000 kpa or 150-160kg/cm2 (this is the same as 4M40 injector)

Very intersting