Welcome to the "Last Word Café".

[glenn]

The planes didn't cause the collapse. Both towers survived the impact of the planes- as they were designed to do. The chief cause of the collapse was the failure of the steel structure due to prolonged exposure to intense heat.

For those of you who are interested, here is a good summary of what engineers, building scientists, material scientists and most other thinking people have concluded happened. There really is no mystery

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/01 ... -0112.html

tower Seven?? There are a number of facts that have encouraged conspiracy theories about Tower Seven. (from the internet)
1.Although its collapse potentially made architectural history, all of the thousands of tonnes of steel from the skyscraper were taken away to be melted down.
2.it was occupied by the Secret Service, the CIA, the Department of Defense and the Office of Emergency Management, which would co-ordinate any response to a disaster or a terrorist attack.
3.The destruction of the third tower was never mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. The first official inquiry into Tower Seven by the Federal Emergency Management Agency was unable to be definitive about what caused its collapse.
4.In May 2002 FEMA concluded that the building collapsed because intense fires had burned for hours, fed by thousands of gallons of diesel stored in the building. But it said this had "only a low probability of occurrence" and more work was needed.

Plenty of fuel for the conspiracy theories to be sure. Maybe it was scuttled. But it can also be more rationally explained by the fact that the fires inside burned for many hours, without any firefighting. There is plenty of info on this collapse - just go ask the internet

Last thing - all cascading building collapses look like controlled demolitions. As one floor falls on top of the floor below it, gravity pulls it straight down. Anomalies can cause them to lean and fall slightly to a side, but for the most part, they collapse straight down on themselves. Talk about the McGurk effect!

[solanoid]

The planes didn't cause the collapse. Both towers survived the impact of the planes- as they were designed to do. The chief cause of the collapse was the failure of the steel structure due to prolonged exposure to intense heat.

For those of you who are interested, here is a good summary of what engineers, building scientists, material scientists and most other thinking people have concluded happened. There really is no mystery

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/01 ... -0112.html

tower Seven?? There are a number of facts that have encouraged conspiracy theories about Tower Seven. (from the internet)
1.Although its collapse potentially made architectural history, all of the thousands of tonnes of steel from the skyscraper were taken away to be melted down.
2.it was occupied by the Secret Service, the CIA, the Department of Defense and the Office of Emergency Management, which would co-ordinate any response to a disaster or a terrorist attack.
3.The destruction of the third tower was never mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. The first official inquiry into Tower Seven by the Federal Emergency Management Agency was unable to be definitive about what caused its collapse.
4.In May 2002 FEMA concluded that the building collapsed because intense fires had burned for hours, fed by thousands of gallons of diesel stored in the building. But it said this had "only a low probability of occurrence" and more work was needed.

Plenty of fuel for the conspiracy theories to be sure. Maybe it was scuttled. But it can also be more rationally explained by the fact that the fires inside burned for many hours, without any firefighting. There is plenty of info on this collapse - just go ask the internet

Last thing - all cascading building collapses look like controlled demolitions. As one floor falls on top of the floor below it, gravity pulls it straight down. Anomalies can cause them to lean and fall slightly to a side, but for the most part, they collapse straight down on themselves. Talk about the McGurk effect!

Hundreds of architechs,engineers, demolition experts, all disagree with you.

Hundres DO argree with you, who do you trust?

Those employed by the zionist occupied government (zog)
or those that are not?

[nxski]

Conspiracy or not, it is fact that metal structures need very little heat to collapse when metal is exposed and will look like a controlled demolition when they do collapse. Any architect or engineer that argues differently is a fraud and hasn't been to school. This is one of the first things you learn.

There are many different conspiracy theories surrounding 9-11 each with their own flaws. I'm curious to see which ones people on this site believe and why!?

[FalcoColumbarius]

This is a picture from the link you just posted, Glenn. This is the dramatic image of the south tower that was captured by so many cameras from so many angles. What is the primary thing that you see in this picture? I see a massive fire ball exploding out into the atmosphere. What do you think that fireball is comprised of? What I see is that majority of the modified diesel 1 burning up in the atmosphere, outside of the building. Now that we have witnessed this, what we need to consider is what is the fuel in the building comprised of? The caption under that picture reports:

• Figure 1. Flames and debris exploded from the World Trade Center south tower immediately after the airplane’s impact. The black smoke indicates a fuel-rich fire

This is a very misleading statement. Now that we have established that "jet fuel" is a form of diesel, let's reconsider this statement. I see this as a sort of "the glass is half empty/half full" scenario. When they say that the fire is fuel rich ~ what they are really saying is the fire is oxygen starved. We talk about this topic often in Delica Canada regarding: EGR valves; engine running rich; leak in the intake manifold; &c.. When the fire is burning more fuel than there is oxygen available to aide the fuel consumption ~ two things occur: A/the fire burns cooler; B/ a lot of soot is created that appears as various types of smoke. When a fire is burning intensely hot, then soot is less likely to appear.

Another thing about this picture that is very obvious to me is the contrast has been adjusted, you can see it with all the exaggerated shadows. Why would they do that?

Falco, unfortunately you are wrong about the way steel reacts to heat. Psilosin has it right. There is a good reason why you never see unprotected steel in a structure - except when it's coated in intumescent paint (paint which foams up and provides insulation when exposed to heat).

Excuse my ignorance - but could you guys (Falco and solanoid) state in simple language, what exactly you are suggesting happened. And don't point me to some kooky website - just tell me what you think happened.

Well, my father ran a steel foundry and I learned that steel begins to melt at 1510°C but starts to lose integrity at 538°C. Jet fuel (modified diesel 1) burns between 260°C ~ 315°C (under pressure). The kooky website I sited is Wikipedia. I think that is a reasonable source.

As far as simple English is concerned ~ how simple do you want me to make it? These are my words. However I must admit that my words are influenced by what I observe. For instance if I see a car run a red light really fast and T-bone another car in a junction ~ my words are going to be along the lines of: "Holy ****, we better call an ambulance, let's see if they're okay". On the other hand if I see a really cute babe walk past in a really skimpy outfit ~ my words will be influenced differently.

If I see two 757s crash into two separate buildings in two different ways, in two different places on each building (the first one ploughed into the north tower square on at around the 98th floor, while the second one struck the corner of the south tower at roughly a thirty five degree angle at around the 76th floor, if memory serves me well), and then they both implode in the same manner, complete with squibs of smoke protruding from the buildings just ahead of the free fall pace of the building collapse ~ then my words are going to be something like: "Wow. Looks like demolition. I need to get more information on this."

Conspiracy or not, it is fact that metal structures need very little heat to collapse when metal is exposed and will look like a controlled demolition when they do collapse. Any architect or engineer that argues differently is a fraud and hasn't been to school. This is one of the first things you learn.

There are many different conspiracy theories surrounding 9-11 each with their own flaws. I'm curious to see which ones people on this site believe and why!?

I have only heard of three examples of steel structured buildings allegedly collapsing due to fire in the history of mankind, Trade Center 1, Trade Center 2 & Trade Center 7*. I have looked but can find nothing. Can you find an example of a steel structured building actually collapsing due to fire?

Regarding conspiracy theories in general ~ conspiracy has been an integral part of the human condition since time in memorial ("Et tu, Brutus?"). I see no reason why it would have changed in the past thirty years.

Regarding the current subject matter ~ then the most comprehensive tool/model I would recommend is the film "Zeitgeist: The Movie", as they follow up their argument with a very extensive reference/source guide.

Falco.

[nxski]

I've watched videos of steel buildings collapsing from fire in school but I will have a look online to try to find an example. Most likely it is not the jet fuel causing the collapse, most of that would have burnt off in that big fireball. What causes very high temperature fires and leads flashover is the petrochemicals used in so many of the plastic items we have in buildings these days. I haven't heard of any modern buildings collapsing due to fire because the protection placed around the steel is much better now than it used to be. The reason the twin towers fell despite having this protection is most likely because the impact from the plane knocked the majority of it off.

[glenn]

Ok, solonoid rolled his virtual eyes at me, and didn't say anything.

Falco - you didn't really add anything. True that a lot of fuel burned up in the atmosphere, but there is like two B-trains worth of fuel on board each plane. Can you really say that that fireball accounts for all the fuel? And based on what, a gut feeling on the size of the fireball?

And just because a large steel building has never collapsed from fire, doesn't mean it can't. These three are all extreme events - the 7th tower was left to burn for hours. If you have ever seen the aftermath of a smaller steel building fire, there is tonnes of twisted and bent metal. It's a result of the heat - are you questioning this well established fact? We learn this in first year of architecture school. Many architects love exposed steel - but it is usually sheathed is drywall for fire protection.

nxski has the right idea with steel buildings. Whatever the source of the fire, it doesn't take as much heat to weaken a steel structure.

Again, what are you saying happened? Do you have a working hypothesis, in a nutshell. We're the buildings blown up by the government to hide something? I could buy that building 7 was scuttled - but seriously, what are you implying about the twin towers? Solonoid is implying that it was Israel.

And by kooky website, it was referring to solonoid's source of "information" From what I can tell, they want us to believe that it wasn't the Muslims, it was the Jews that blew up the towers??

[solanoid]

[quote="glenn"]Ok, solonoid rolled his virtual eyes at me, and didn't say anything.

Actually I said that different "profesionals" have different theories
Falco - you didn't really add anything. True that a lot of fuel burned up in the atmosphere, but there is like two B-trains worth of fuel on board each plane. Can you really say that that fireball accounts for all the fuel? And based on what, a gut feeling on the size of the fireball?

And just because a large steel building has never collapsed from fire, doesn't mean it can't. These three are all extreme events - the 7th tower was left to burn for hours.

It burned for half a day, that is not long. Other steel framed buidings buned for days and never fell down
If you have ever seen the aftermath of a smaller steel building fire, there is tonnes of twisted and bent metal. It's a result of the heat - are you questioning this well established fact? We learn this in first year of architecture school. Many architects love exposed steel - but it is usually sheathed is drywall for fire protection.

nxski has the right idea with steel buildings. Whatever the source of the fire, it doesn't take as much heat to weaken a steel structure.

Again, what are you saying happened? Do you have a working hypothesis, in a nutshell.

Thermite
We're the buildings blown up by the government to hide something?

They passed the patriot about two weeks after 9/11, usually it takes YEARS to pass something like that. And did you know that over 10,000 sensitive documents were lost in #7 mainly belonging to a company called goldman sachs, Who owned multiple floors inside #7

I could buy that building seven was scuttled

THAT CONFIRMS OUR SIDE OF THE STORY! your saying that it was it only a partial conspiracy? ASIF
but seriously, what are you implying about the twin towers? Solonoid is implying that it was Israel.
And by kooky website, it was referring to solonoid's source of "information" From what I can tell, they want us to believe that it wasn't the Muslims, it was the Jews that blew up the towers??

OK my source of info is KOOKY, but the mainstream media, now there is a real cridible source. Along with the investigation companies that were bought out.
YOU HAVE A CLOSE LOOK AT 800 POUND GORILLA-IT COVERS ALL OF THIS STUFF IN DEPTH, LOOK AT PEOPLE INVOLVED, LOOK AT WHO PROFITED.

Listen, the government is controlled by companies, companies are controlled by money, money is controlled by BILDERBERG, bilderberg is controlled by ZOG.

Let me guess, you think that "they" are gods chosen people right?- YES OR NO GLENN?

[glenn]

I looked it up Solonoid, ZOG is an antisemitic conspiracy theory which holds that Jews secretly control a given country, while the formal government is a puppet regime.[wikipedia]

I was asking for your theories on what you think happened - but on second thought, I think I would rather you just keep it to yourself.

[Artacoma]

A lot of things create heat.
I have an air compressor in my workshop , when it's running at 150psi I can spit on the cylinder head and it boils away. Air heats up when it is compressed. I see the floors pancaking one on top of the other and I imagine a lot of air compressing really fast.
Steel heats up when you bend it , bend a dinner spoon handle back and forth a few times and it heats up. And it weakens considerably with just a couple of bends.
I just finished a 15,000 square foot reno in a concrete office building , all the walls and plumbing and ceiling material (non-combustible rated material) came on 5 or so large flat bed delivery trucks , all the carpet , furniture ,office dividers and electronics were delivered in 8 or 9 full length semi trailers.I would guess the contents of the towers were close to equal the mass of the structure. (that figure is probably out there somewhere)

just sayin

[solanoid]

I looked it up Solonoid, ZOG is an antisemitic conspiracy theory which holds that Jews secretly control a given country, while the formal government is a puppet regime.[wikipedia]

I was asking for your theories on what you think happened - but on second thought, I think I would rather you just keep it to yourself.

I bet that you are R.C. arent you Glenn? you did not answer my question; are they gods chosen people or not?

I do NOT advocate hate or racism, but I call it as it is. There are many non jewish zionists, and there are many jews opposed to zionism.

Who owns the federal mint? zionists--- http://conspiracyrealitytv.com/meet-the-rothschilds/
Who controls the media? zionists--- (here is a link to REAL news) http://therealnews.com/t2/
Who controls the bilderberg group? zionists--- (wont let me link over 4 sites)

Did you know that the nazis and the zionist had an alliance? and that there were many jewish nazis? they wont tell you that on wiki.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

Things are not as they seem in this F'D up world! you need to question everything!
NOW READ THIS;
http://800pg.co.cc/geeklog//staticpages ... p?page=911

[psilosin]

[solanoid]

People can laugh, but this is imporatant information, Stuff that needs to be brought to light. You can label me however you want, but at least I have the balls to stand up and speak my mind. Weather its here or on the street. I am not satisfied with the status quo, and never take anyones word on things until I look it up myself.

I suppose that no matter what evidence is provided, some people will never wake up. The same groups that have opressed and exploited civilizations throughout history are still alive and well. Only now they hide in the shadows and control things without accountability what so ever.

You all have faith in the system? you think that the gov is representing the peoples wishes, and acting sensibly?
You wake up every morning, read your newspaper, and feel as though you are up to speed on global events? you think that the world is heading in good direction, and that things are getting better? you think that if you look the other way it wont effect you? Do you care about your future generations, and what they will have to deal with?

Oh Im sure you do, everything is just fine eh? thats nice....SLEEP TIGHT!

[Artacoma]

haha! 2 thumbs up for Wesley Willis and Retard Bus

I'm gonna put that on my iPod and threaten my van with it the next time it acts up

[CREGAN]

OH MY GOD! I can't beleive there is another Wesley Willis Fan in the world! I thought I was the only one. For those of you that don't know he was a schizophreniac with a permanent scar on his forehead from hitting it. He really rocked out with his Casio keyboard. We used to listen to this in University because when you put it on at a party, we would just bust it laughing at peoples reactions. "Vampire Bat" and "Rock and Roll McDonalds" are other classic hits. Search You-Tube and you will find them all. Too Funny.

Craig

[FalcoColumbarius]

Ok, solonoid rolled his virtual eyes at me, and didn't say anything.

Falco - you didn't really add anything. True that a lot of fuel burned up in the atmosphere, but there is like two B-trains worth of fuel on board each plane. Can you really say that that fireball accounts for all the fuel? And based on what, a gut feeling on the size of the fireball?

Well, let's take a look at what we know: WTC 1 & 2 were 208 feet from corner to corner and each of the 110 stories were roughly 12 feet high. The 757 maximum fuel capacity before take off is 11,489 US Gallons, which works out to something in the neighbourhood of 1,536 cubic feet. Now let's take a look at the picture again... yeah ~ I'd say that is the majority of the fuel, especially considering that the plane has already taken off, which must use a fair amount ~ would you not say?

And just because a large steel building has never collapsed from fire, doesn't mean it can't. These three are all extreme events - the 7th tower was left to burn for hours. If you have ever seen the aftermath of a smaller steel building fire, there is tonnes of twisted and bent metal. It's a result of the heat - are you questioning this well established fact? We learn this in first year of architecture school. Many architects love exposed steel - but it is usually sheathed is drywall for fire protection.

Hmmm.... So, so far ~ the only steel framed buildings we know to have collapsed allegedly due to fire are WTC 1, WTC 2 & WTC 7. Well in all fairness I saw an interview with Larry Silverstein where he talks about how much life had been lost that day so he said to the fire chief to pull the building:



I guess the firemen just ran into the building and threw a bunch of explosives around and demolished the building. I didn't know that firemen actually did that?

Regarding One and Two: Did you know that the core columns ranged from 54"X22" to 36"X16", there was 47 of them and they were all inter-braced with their own flooring system that was independent from the rest of the building? Assuming the "pancake theory", the core structure could stand by itself, it was like a building inside a building, a sort of Kinder Surprise. They were all tapered: Thick steel at the bottom. Here is an elevation section of one near the base. Around the 66th floor, the steel is only two inches thick:




nxski has the right idea with steel buildings. Whatever the source of the fire, it doesn't take as much heat to weaken a steel structure.

As stated before, steel begins to lose integrity at 538°C. It begins to melt at 1510°C. Jet fuel burns under pressure between 260°C - 315°C. Just sayin'. 538°C - 315°C = 223°C short of compromising steel

Again, what are you saying happened? Do you have a working hypothesis, in a nutshell. We're the buildings blown up by the government to hide something? I could buy that building 7 was scuttled - but seriously, what are you implying about the twin towers? Solonoid is implying that it was Israel.

Me? I'm just a painter. All I have are my wits and I haven't taken inventory of those lately, either. However, considering that at 09:59h South Tower collapsed only 56 minutes after being hit by the 757 around the 78th floor. Somewhere there is a video of the top of the building sliding off the structure (I believe this is what destroyed building five) after a massive explosion from the basement, as demonstrated in the following video, which which kind of blows the pancake theory as now there is no weight to cause that theory's collapse scenario. North Tower came down in the same fashion at 10:28h, even though it was struck differently in a different part of the building. It was burning for an hour and forty-two minutes. Both imploded, with squibs leading the way down the building. Both buildings dropped at or near free fall speed. There are numerous accounts of huge explosions coming from the basements prior to the collapses. After the collapses there were accounts of molten steel in the basements for as long as five weeks after the incident. There were reports of Thermite being called in from various parties, including firemen, both inside and from outside ~ some whom are unable to speak for themselves any more. What do you think? I don't see a picture of a smoking gun but jeez ~ the circumstantial evidence seems to have mounted up, some. Does it not seem the remotest bit fishy to you? Here is a video of the North Tower Collapsing, the camera is mounted. Just before the collapse you hear a thud at the same time as the camera shakes.



And by kooky website, it was referring to solonoid's source of "information" From what I can tell, they want us to believe that it wasn't the Muslims, it was the Jews that blew up the towers??

I think it's safe to presume that people of all faiths died in those buildings. I have read accounts of 400+ Jews; a few hundred Moslims; I'm sure there were Christians there, so the three children of Abraham were well represented. I'll wager that there were some Shintos, Taoists, Buddhists, Sikhs & Hindus, as well.

Whether it was a man in a cave orchestrating it or an inside job ~ it's been a sad day for humanity. My thoughts go out to the victims of that wicked day and especially the surviving members of the families affected who are still piecing it together; or trying to remember who their parents were; or the children who when rushed to safety witnessed the falling people from the towers hitting parked cars or the ground; or the Lover who sits in a frame on the mantle watching his bride go about her lonely business as she gets older...

Falco.