VHF

For HAM or CB technical discussions
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FalcoColumbarius
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VHF

Post by FalcoColumbarius »

I was in the local coffee shop the other week and I met this guy. He is with the North Shore Amateur Radio Club. We got to talking and he was interested in my van, of which I was happy to expound upon. He told me about the NSARC and what can be done with radio. So he gave me a number of the guy who runs the club's training programme, whom I also spoke with.

The next course will be taught in January, 09 and costs something like $220.00. This price includes your first year's license fee and the materials for your aerial ~ an excellent deal. I understand that it is eight Saturday mornings over a ten weekend period, not 100% sure on that.

Firstly: Having bounced this thought off clouds and around with people like Jay & Christine of the Tardisdeli, we have discussed the benefits of having VHF (Very High Frequency), like monitoring logging road traffic. When you drive on a Forest Service Road that is active with logging companies and you get into a situation with a logging truck of any nature.... the logging truck is in the right. Whether you are dead or just a chip in your windscreen ~ it is your responsibility. By monitoring VHF traffic and communicating your presence this can be avoided.

Secondly: Family Service Radios are very limited in range. When travelling in a convoy up a FSR that has hills and corners I have often lost communication with other vehicles operating on the same wavelength, ever when they are only an hundred feet away, even though my radio says it can transmit up to 40 kilometres ~ which is true if one is in a level environment with no physical obstacles in the line of transmission ~ but this is rarely the case in BC. VHF has much better range and power.

Thirdly: If you get lost, broken down in the toolies, emergency situation, &c., you have options ~ like radio triangulation or calling for help. On the other side of that token if you hear someone in distress and rescue them you might get a free steak dinner and get your picture in the paper!

Fourthly: A lot of us have seen what the Delica can do, pretty impressive. Many of us have heard how some powers that be want to outlaw the Delica. Imagine if there was a disaster and because of the Delica's abilities and the use of VHF communication (emergency coordination groups such as Provincial Emergency Programme use amateur VHF) we save lives and contribute to the betterment of society, what would they say then? That would take the wind out of there sails.

Fifthly: It's fun. Look up the Internet Radio Linking Project (invented at UBC, BTW) and see what is available to you in the world of VHF.

Any comments?

Falco.
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Re: VHF

Post by mararmeisto »

I have thought about a radio for Moon Machine, but at this point a PlantDrive is a more practical addition to its outfit.

That doesn't mean that my interest in a radio has diminished any, it just means that I've reorganised my priorities for purchasing/installing.
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Re: VHF

Post by delicat »

Good going Falco!

Have you looked into how much the actual radio cost? I agree with your points, these radio can save us from backing up on a narrow roads for many KM's while a big rig is breathing on our neck (our we could be stuck on their windshield!!)

When I have a chance I'll look with the Burnaby radio club (it's on Hastings?) and see what they offer.

cheers!
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Re: VHF

Post by docsavage »

It is definitely advisable to have VHF for any active logging road travel. In the summer the truck drivers do expect tourist traffic, but being able to call your location on the road is really handy - even for those of us not driving logging trucks (I know I have been surprised several times by campers and RV's on roads where they are not expected). If you are on an active logging road, the use of VHF for inter vehicle communication is not recommended - it makes it very difficult to pick out where other vehicles are. A CB or FRS radio should be used for general chit chat.

If you don't want a radio that is just for use on logging roads I recommend something like the ICOM IC-M88. It has all the marine bands and weather channels when you are out on the water, as well as 22 programmable land channels. In Canada we are obliged to take the radio to a certified dealer for programming due to government regulation, however, a determined individual can purchase the cables and software on overseas sites and program them themselves. I have an ICOM IC-M90 (was about $400 on discount internet sites) which is no longer available but has 100 programmable channels. I carry it with me when I'm out in the woods and am able through the use of the company repeaters contact the office from over a 100 km's away. In most instances, to you should ask permission from the companies that have repeaters to get them programmed on your radio.

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Re: VHF

Post by delicat »

Do loggers monitor CB radio at all?
I'd rather have a radio that suits all my needs (FSR, safety/rescue, chit-chat...) than 2 or 3 radios!
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Re: VHF

Post by GREENME@U »

Hello there i have a cb radio in my van I had it lying around for years brand new.....i use it for 4x4in with buddys for chit chat and i am going to get a VHF radio so i can go down active logging roads as far as having two radios ma i dont realy care as long as theres room...and they work good im in.. Cheers :M
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FalcoColumbarius
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Re: VHF

Post by FalcoColumbarius »

delicat wrote:Do loggers monitor CB radio at all?
I'd rather have a radio that suits all my needs (FSR, safety/rescue, chit-chat...) than 2 or 3 radios!
If the loggers have CB then it is for there own personal use, I would imagine. CB is a much lower frequency and the power & range is not that good. From what I understand, VHF bounces off the stratosphere which allows one to hear what is being transmitted from the next valley, even though there is a mountain in the way. I am lead to believe that in active logging areas they post signs that inform you of what frequency that particular camp is transmitting on. Also, Delicat, there is a club in Burnaby but I understand that the North Shore Club is the better bet both price wise and for practical purposes. The NSARC operates out of the North Van Detachment (Fort St. Georges[sic]), and I believe they are hooked up with emergency practices, &c.. I have a mate who is in the Provincial Emergency Programme, when I was putting together the original post I was on the phone with him getting information. There is a radio shop on Hastings, in Burnaby, they have radios but I don't recall asking them for prices ~ although I did purchase a radio book there for $33.00 which will give me a basic understanding of what to expect from the course.

More groups monitor VHF than they do CB. In the event of a disaster the emergency groups, although they operate on UHF as you are likely aware, they will be monitoring VHF also. Plus, with the advent of UBC's "Internet Radio Linking Project", with VHF you could have a radio discussion with Mystery Machine in the UK, or anyone all over the world if they are on VHF.

The way I see it, we have this great Delica Club happening here in cyberspace and also on Earth ~ so if we can get enough people in Delica.ca to commit to this course in North Van then perhaps we can negotiate with the Radio Club (group rates, even practical uses as the Delica Club).OVER.

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Re: VHF

Post by JMK »

Amateur band, and licensed hams, can legally transmit in the 144-148 range. Logging trucks are usually in the 150's. To use an amateur band radio to talk to them, it must be modified to transmit out of band. There is no way to take a modified amateur band radio and talk to logging trucks legally, whether you are a licensed HAM or not. A licensed HAM in Canada cannot use a modified non type approved radio legally, nor be in possession of one, like people qualified under MARS/CAP can do in the USA.

Now, having said same, it is also a fact that just like movies downloaded via Torrents, it is done all the time, and those who do so suffer very little in terms of consequences. A Vertex VX 170 VHF radio can be purchased for $149.00, and the mod is normally billed out at $35.00. To transmit out of band with it, you would also need the appropriate antenna that will run you another $29.00 so that you do not overload your VFO with a standing wave. This radio is legal for sale in Canada as an amateur band radio unlike many of the non DOC approved radios available on eBay. However, and again, note that once it has the mod done, it is technically no longer legal. Also, this radio is the preferred VHF handheld of most of BC's professional ski guiding community due to its price, features, and MIL spec rating.

So the point here is this. Do not labour under the impression that you can take a $220.00 HAM course and then legally use an amateur band radio to talk to logging trucks, who do not operate on amateur band frequenceis for the most part. You can do it, but as you will still not be legal in that pursuit, take the HAM course only if you want to talk to other HAMS on the allocated amateur bands, be they VHF, UHF, Satellite, or whatever.

If you do want to become a ham and you are reasonably self motivated, you can read the manuals yourself at home and then simply go and write the exam at the DOC offices (usually scheduled for once a month) to attain your basic license without the expense and time of taking a course.
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Re: VHF

Post by FalcoColumbarius »

Out of curiosity JMK, where did you get your information from? The reason I have asked this is that many people I have talked to say otherwise. They range from emergency personnel, RCMP, UN radio operators, Off road organisations... I was discussing with a couple of off-road guys and they tell me that they contact the logging companies when they see a road marked with band frequencies all the time. If what they were doing was illegal would the logging companies not report them?

Falco.

P.S.: I see you live in Alberta, could the laws be different between the two provinces?
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Re: VHF

Post by JMK »

The laws are federal, as I recall they are governed by the Radio Communications Act.

Although I am literally tied to a VHF radio every day that I am at work, I have come at this over the years personally from a few different angles: - Radio Dealer, - Peace Officer involved in Public Safety mandates including search and rescue, - Licensed Ham (that helped organize ham courses for other peace officers (Park Wardens) and mountain guides). I know all the people you refer to in your post, they have come to us over the years and while they are all professionals in their field, they are not so in terms of radios necessarily, just as I am not. For the definitive answers we'd need to enlist someone that works for the DOC. However in terms of what a HAM radio can be used for and 'type approval', most experienced HAMs could comment on that.

I would definetly encourage everyone to seek their HAM license, the knowledge gained is well worth it no matter what aspect of using a radio is of particular interest to you.

I guess all I'm seeking to do is state the facts as I understand them without passing judgement on how they are interpreted. For example, I found the HAM license exam, which was about 3 hours long and is almost all multiple choice, to be easy enough that I didn't see why a course was necessary. I think the ones we did run however, got the candidates through in one day.

Again, while it may not be legal for someone to use a non type approved radio to ensure their own safety and that of others, I can appreciate why many may do so when they are faced with paying, literally, around 10X more for functionally the same radio that is type approved for the commercial band.

It would be truly unfortunate if someone took a ham course thinking it would get all their ducks in order in terms of being able to legally talk a logging truck, or legally trip the repeater to call BC Forestry or CHM Heli Skiing Lodge using a non type approved radio. It's even more unfortunate when someone's life could have been saved by the timely use of a VHF radio however, so by all means, get one, learn how to use it, and carry it in your pack if it has the potential to prevent you and your loved ones from being in harm's way.
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Re: VHF

Post by GREENME@U »

just wondering JK why do the logging roads post the radio channel?? we cant talk to them?im sure u can pick up a scanner that will catch VHF no??? but will just hearing them help? i would like to read more on this post,i go to the logging roads lots for fishing and such.....so this would be alot safer then almost geting nuked by a logging truck! when its active i go like a herd of turtles(VERY SLOW) thks;

Marty M. :M :-D
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Re: VHF

Post by FalcoColumbarius »

Thanks for your input, JMK. I will look more into this as I believe it is a good thing.... I believe it is the right thing to do.... Smiles.

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Re: VHF

Post by ghmorris »

For DOC substitute Industry Canada, Spectrum Management Group.

An outstanding bunch of people in my experience. We went through an equipment audit late last year to make sure everything in use was approved. A stressful but rewarding experience and the IC guys couldn't have been more helpful.

JMK raises a good point. YMMV, but if you aren't being a jerk you are likely pretty safe. If you are causing licensed users problems then IC can and will throw the book at you. And the book is very heavy...

Licensed users pay a lot of money for their licenses so you have to make sure that you don't treat their licensed spectrum like a CB band. You are (officially) not allowed to use licensed frequencies without the permission of the licensee. Custom has apparently grown up to the contrary, but the (official) rules are still there.

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Re: VHF

Post by JMK »

Hi Marty,

They post the frequency in theory so other company personel with licensed radios know which local frequency to use, however as noted anyone with a programmable VHF radio could use it, ir with a scanner, can listen in.

George raises another point I didn't want to cloud the issue with too much, but a good point withal. EG, even if you had a licensed type approved radio, for say "Galena" frequencies and you took it on holidays to Vancouver Island and you were somewhere near Toquart Bay, you in fact wouldn't be licensed for that area. Another example, you know how truckers yak their way across numerous provinces using VHF, they in fact are probably only licensed for a much smaller area in many cases. That's why in the past during critical rescues in Banff we have had unauthorized traffic of various sources (mainly truckers) obstructing our rescue VHF rescue and operational channels during emergency operations. But I agree, an out of band radio, when used intelligently and responsibly, rarely will land the operator in trouble, especially in rural settings.
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Re: VHF

Post by delicat »

So if we use it in the lower band we could still chi-chat as we drive along, similar to a CB? And if we end up on a narrow active logging road (FSR) we could scan for big lug trucks coming down in the opposite direction so we know to stay out of their path or advise them of our position before proceeding so that we don't end up having to back up on a narrow and dangerous mountain road?

Do I get this right?
CB vs VHF?
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