Underground parking and strata woes

[jessef]

our strata president is a bit of a cycling nut

find a common ground if he/she is bullheaded. People like that can turn 180 and be your best friend if you find a common like.

[thedjjack]

Falco has the proper warm up procedure for a diesel engine. It is especially important when you have an aluminum head and cast engine block. The heat and pressures generated by immediately "driving easy" will cause the aluminum head to expand much quicker than the cast block, stressing the head gasket. While the exhaust gas temps. may be low while "driving easy" the pressures in the combustion chamber are much higher than operating the engine with no load (high idle), putting even more unnecessary stress on the head gasket. If you want to get the longest life out of your engine, let it warm up at high idle. Diesel or gas. Engine parts wear about 80% more when cold as opposed to warm. A good thing to remember, is the groups that say idling is a waste of fuel, is the same group that says driving a vehicle over 15 years old puts out too many emissions. These groups want you to keep buying new vehicles, they don't want your vehicle to last a long time. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the emissions produced to manufacture parts needed to replace prematurely worn parts will be far more than the emissions produced by warming up for 5 min. Not to mention the extra fuel burned making more trips to work to pay for the prematurely failed parts. If you don't plan on owning the vehicle for long, and are simply "flipping" vehicles, then no warm up is probably the best economic choice for you. Just too bad for the next person. And this is simply an opinion based on my schooling as a diesel mechanic, and experience fixing diesels (and some gassers) for over twenty years in the province of Manitoba, where the temperatures have been known to go below zero. I like to call it "real world experience". I didn't hear it from a friend who knows some guy, or read it in a magazine some where. Take it how ever you want. (I understand if the moderators want to move this, as this topic will probably never get back on topic now.)

Jason

We are not talking about Manitoba temperatures or BC Northern Interior temperatures (where I use to run a personal 1.6VW diesel and a fleet of one tons) we are talking lower mainland cold = around zero.

Yes at extreme temperatures warming up at high idle is good idea. At zero degrees once the combustion chambers are warm enough for a smooth idle (few seconds) and oil pressure is up. Driving under light loads with keeping the combustion chamber cool (measured as EGT) is not going to cause premature wear. The motor is going to go through a reasonable warm up period without extreme loads.

Yes, the number one reason for head gasket failures is racing cold engines. This is far from it.

Idling or even fast idling at warm temperatures (around zero) is going to fill the cylinders with all kinds of by products from incomplete combustion. Causing damage to rings and cylinder walls.

Really if people want to treat the diesel nice pre-warming with coolant heater and oil pan warmer makes more sense then idling for 5 minutes at zero degrees C.

[Manitoba deli]

Even at +30C temps, it is beneficial to operate a diesel engine under no load (high idle) for a few minutes. +30C or -30C is not the issue. It's going from that temp. to over 600C internally too quickly. The slower you can warm it up, the longer it will last. This seems to be learned quicker in Manitoba, because the devastating results of no warm up are seen much quicker in the cold. Mitsubishi diesels are not known for head gasket problems. In the heavy equipment industry these same engines are well known for their longevity. In the automotive industry, they are known for having owners who are not familiar with proper diesel engine operation, which very often leads to head gasket failure, and premature engine failure. As for the original posters problem, the common ground suggestion is great, an air care certification would also be an extremely good thing to have. Good luck.

Jason

[thedjjack]

Even at +30C temps, it is beneficial to operate a diesel engine under no load (high idle) for a few minutes. +30C or -30C is not the issue. It's going from that temp. to over 600C internally too quickly. The slower you can warm it up, the longer it will last. This seems to be learned quicker in Manitoba, because the devastating results of no warm up are seen much quicker in the cold. Mitsubishi diesels are not known for head gasket problems. In the heavy equipment industry these same engines are well known for their longevity. In the automotive industry, they are known for having owners who are not familiar with proper diesel engine operation, which very often leads to head gasket failure, and premature engine failure. As for the original posters problem, the common ground suggestion is great, an air care certification would also be an extremely good thing to have. Good luck.

Jason

The reason this is learned quicker in Manitoba (or other cold temperatures) is temperature does make a difference. A significant difference. Fluids properties are very susceptible to temperatures.

Other then "personal" experience do you have any studies that support this (people typically with no experience do not do maintenance and drive diesels like gas motors)? Most studies I have seen talk about damage from incomplete combustion damage to oil, cylinder walls, rings, piston and pre-chamber damage as a direct result of prolonged idling with no load.

Most idling myths have been disproved. Moving my L300 to 40km/h then idling on the light about 2 minutes down the block for a minute. Is a nice easy warm up. I bet I never break 400F on my exhaust temp and stays around 300 (which would = my fast idle).

Look at the Sail boat industry most company say the biggest problems with boat engines is they are started with no load, powered around 5mph to get out of harbour and shut down. Kills this motors. Never warmed up and run under load. What diesels were made for.

[mycale2]

quickly, must....hijack....ownnnn....post......arrrrrghhhhhhhh


it's getting harder and harder to hold onto this post!! haha Honestly, with the strata council president, I have no worries. He's just a crank and everything i know of him tells me this is true. what is this Air Care thing you mainlanders keep speaking of>???? The island is max relax...you mainlanders think you can come over to our island and tell us what to do with yer fancy big city pants......ohhh sorry, got carried away. It's all that salty air we breathe out here. Like I said, I will bet money on the fact that I will not hear a peep out of the president on this. If I do I will politely ask for the citation in the rules and his proof that my truck is any worse that anyone else's vehicle. That should keep him quiet. I am a fan of cycling as well. Heck I only just got my licence at the age of 36! Kids will do that to you. Before that I was a walker and a biker.

[jessef]

I am a fan of cycling as well. Heck I only just got my licence at the age of 36! Kids will do that to you. Before that I was a walker and a biker.

There's your in !

[tonydca]

quickly, must....hijack....ownnnn....post......arrrrrghhhhhhhh


it's getting harder and harder to hold onto this post!! haha Honestly, with the strata council president, I have no worries. He's just a crank and everything i know of him tells me this is true. what is this Air Care thing you mainlanders keep speaking of>???? The island is max relax...you mainlanders think you can come over to our island and tell us what to do with yer fancy big city pants......ohhh sorry, got carried away. It's all that salty air we breathe out here. Like I said, I will bet money on the fact that I will not hear a peep out of the president on this. If I do I will politely ask for the citation in the rules and his proof that my truck is any worse that anyone else's vehicle. That should keep him quiet. I am a fan of cycling as well. Heck I only just got my licence at the age of 36! Kids will do that to you. Before that I was a walker and a biker.

Again, speaking as a past Strata President, when push comes to shove, your President has no extraordinary powers of his own; he can only inform you of decisions voted upon by the Council, unless there is an existing by-law he is directly quoting (which I doubt).

Some people like to think they can throw their weight around. If this is truly bothering you, I re-iterate my earlier post: write a nice polite letter to your Property Manager outlining your concerns and summarizing your position, and request that it be read aloud next Council Meeting. Include the comment about the courtesy of written requests, and state that - to your understanding - decisions mst be voted upon by Council, not invoked by individual Council members such as Shmendrick McPresident.

Honestly, this is the best way for you to go; it will put your position down in writing, and will implicitly let your President know that he can't go around harassing anyone on an individual basis.

I'm all for Jesse's kinder gentler approach if you think you can get him on your side, but some people just have a perpetual bug up their butts...

[Manitoba deli]

Other then "personal" experience do you have any studies that support this (people typically with no experience do not do maintenance and drive diesels like gas motors)

I thought I answered this question before it was asked. It is near the end of my first post, and I said the problem was with people not operating their engines correctly. I never once mentioned maintenance. But I am so glad you brought this next part up

.

Look at the Sail boat industry most company say the biggest problems with boat engines is they are started with no load, powered around 5mph to get out of harbour and shut down. Kills this motors. Never warmed up and run under load. What diesels were made for.

The problem here not that the engines weren't warmed up, it is that they were not properly warmed up. They were started and "eased" out of the harbour for a few minutes, exactly what you are doing by starting your van and "easing" it down the road for a few blocks. It will warm it up, just as it would warm up the sail boats engine, but it is done improperly and causes damage. The engine should be started, and (not idled) operated under no load (AKA high idle) for a few minutes, and then operated as usual. But thanks again for providing some more evidence to support my argument. And sorry mycale2. I sometimes can't help myself when someone gives me such compelling evidence.

Jason

[thedjjack]

Sorry Jason

I know we will not agree. The only reason I continue this is that I think it is a disservice to Diesels motors if people start fast idling Delica's for 5 minutes especially in warm weather.

First actually the marine industry sailboat motors are seen as fast idling for 5-20 minutes and shut down without ever running the motor. Yes a sailboat at 1/3 throttle is basically considered no load. Pushing as sailboat at 5mph takes no effort. It is not turning a gen-set. The sail boat industry clearly states these motors are never run at temperature (the fact that after 20 minutes they are not at operating temperature shows no load) and shut down with all carbon-ed up damaging rings, cylinders, oil, pistons, chambers and valves.

Next interesting how you did not address the other things like oil degrade, combustion chamber/pre-chamber carbon, ring damage, etc attributed to your style warm up?

Finally, yes personal experience does not really count. For example: Person A warms up following your method. Person B does it my way.

Person B blows the head gasket. THIS DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT. Person A since they warm up the motor also probably follow a proper maintenance cycle. Person B motor may have blown up because they never changed coolant, never checked levels, injectors were clogged, and valves never adjusted. This is why we do science. you have no proof of causal effects here.

Finally not all diesels are the same. Not even close. Yes most people Pre 1980s warmed up diesels. Newer motors do not need this.

If people want warmed up motors please plug them in and do not high idle for 5 minutes.

Edit: Also the L300/L400 only hold ~7L oil and under 20L coolant. Oils have become very different since pre1980. This all factors into warm up time. Being in a vehicle you can add a light load something that is not an option in industrial applications.

Moderators can this be moved to a new thread?

[Manitoba deli]

I think you are right, we will probably never agree on this, unless you're willing to change your mind. I'm stubborn as heck. Anyways,

Next interesting how you did not address the other things like oil degrade, combustion chamber/pre-chamber carbon, ring damage, etc attributed to your style warm up?

These things are not attributed to my warm up style, they are attributed to excessive idling. That is letting your engine run at 600 rpm for hours. Operating with no load is not idling. While it is often called high idle, it is not idling. Don't get hung up on that part of the word. That being said, letting it run at low idle for 1 or 2 minutes won't kill your engine, it will break down your oil faster,(which isn't as big a problem with the newer oils) and lead to prematurely clogged injector tips, and the engine won't warm up, but it is not that harmful (or beneficial) to run at low idle (600 rpm) for 1 or 2 minutes. And personal experience counts for a lot. When you are maintaining a small fleet of identical highway tractors (40 Mack trucks with E-7 engines), and one truck is constantly blowing head gaskets and cracking heads, you first think its a lemon, but when the mechanical troubles follow the driver into his next truck, you begin to question things. When the first truck stops having these mechanical troubles with a new driver, and the problems follow the first driver into a third truck, you check to see what's different with this guy. When you see he's the one who simply lets his truck air up, and then eases it down the road while all the others have their trucks on high idle and are having coffee, well as Gru would say "light bulb".
And as for this,

Being in a vehicle you can add a light load something that is not an option in industrial applications.

I have yet to see an industrial engine that could not be put under a light load, the operators are just taught that is not the proper way to warm up an engine. I would like to ask though, how it is that in the industrial world, these engines are not known to need head gaskets replaced until the engines are rebuilt. The 4d56 used on various gen sets, water pumps, skid steer loaders and conveyors typically needs to be rebuilt at 9000-10000hrs, with the head gasket never having been done, and the 4m40 used in wheel loaders, power screeners, and shoulder spreaders, typically gets rebuilt at 10000-12000hrs, with the head gaskets never having been touched. Fluke? I think not.

Jason

[thedjjack]

I agree to not agree.....enjoy the holidays (Hopefully you get some).....

I suspect that most L300 head gaskets are related to climbing big hills with extreme exhaust temperatures half the time on cold motors......

My 1989 is just about to cross 200,000km...But, I keep my cooling system it top order.

[Rising Sun Auto Import]

I think you are right, we will probably never agree on this, unless you're willing to change your mind. I'm stubborn as heck. Anyways,

Next interesting how you did not address the other things like oil degrade, combustion chamber/pre-chamber carbon, ring damage, etc attributed to your style warm up?

These things are not attributed to my warm up style, they are attributed to excessive idling. That is letting your engine run at 600 rpm for hours. Operating with no load is not idling. While it is often called high idle, it is not idling. Don't get hung up on that part of the word. That being said, letting it run at low idle for 1 or 2 minutes won't kill your engine, it will break down your oil faster,(which isn't as big a problem with the newer oils) and lead to prematurely clogged injector tips, and the engine won't warm up, but it is not that harmful (or beneficial) to run at low idle (600 rpm) for 1 or 2 minutes. And personal experience counts for a lot. When you are maintaining a small fleet of identical highway tractors (40 Mack trucks with E-7 engines), and one truck is constantly blowing head gaskets and cracking heads, you first think its a lemon, but when the mechanical troubles follow the driver into his next truck, you begin to question things. When the first truck stops having these mechanical troubles with a new driver, and the problems follow the first driver into a third truck, you check to see what's different with this guy. When you see he's the one who simply lets his truck air up, and then eases it down the road while all the others have their trucks on high idle and are having coffee, well as Gru would say "light bulb".
And as for this,

Being in a vehicle you can add a light load something that is not an option in industrial applications.

I have yet to see an industrial engine that could not be put under a light load, the operators are just taught that is not the proper way to warm up an engine. I would like to ask though, how it is that in the industrial world, these engines are not known to need head gaskets replaced until the engines are rebuilt. The 4d56 used on various gen sets, water pumps, skid steer loaders and conveyors typically needs to be rebuilt at 9000-10000hrs, with the head gasket never having been done, and the 4m40 used in wheel loaders, power screeners, and shoulder spreaders, typically gets rebuilt at 10000-12000hrs, with the head gaskets never having been touched. Fluke? I think not.

Jason

Thanks for good and informative threads.
Very impressive!

Steven