Diesels rule!

[jwfchase]

Once again, shocked and amazed at the like-mindedness of the frequenters of Delica.ca
Here I've been sitting and daydreaming about someday looking into an electric car conversion, and look how many of you have already researched it! Wow!!!

[Schwa]

Big fan of EVs here too... Every time my parents go to buy a new car they always want an electric vehicle, but sadly there's no real offerings, we got a Prius in 2001, being the closest thing to it and it's been a great car, extremely reliable (never had a single problem with it) since it has a mostly electric drivetrain... also makes it possible to hack it into being a true blue EV once it comes time to replace the battery

I convinced a friend of mine to get one in 2005 after he crashed his Nissan Sentra, and it's been well worth it, he really enjoys it and it saves a lot of fuel, plus it's even more hackable - such as the very easy to install "EV" mode button. Hopefully the next generation will have the plug-in option... That will help bridge the gap and get people used to plugging in, and allow us to take advantage of the relatively clean power here at night to drive to work during the day.

[mararmeisto]

...Hopefully the next generation will have the plug-in option... That will help bridge the gap and get people used to plugging in, and allow us to take advantage of the relatively clean power here at night to drive to work during the day.

There are conversion/upgrade kits available to make the Prius and Insight a plug-in hybrid: http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html and http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hyb ... _today.htm

New numbers for fuel economy can achieve 100+mpg!

[The Pinkfingers]

Alot less? You sure about that? Plus it would be waaay more expensive, unless you can fix it yourself - and even then the parts would be expensive until they are mass produced.

imagine a vehicle that NEVER requires an oil change... has no alternator or starter, and that's just to start, no spark(or glow) plugs, no fuel injectors, no fuel pump, a purpose built one wouldn't even need a transmission!
These are MUCH more straightforward than any existing vehicle, and even easier to fix yourself.
the parts ARE mass produced, as most have other applications as well (the motors are used in all sorts of things, the batteries are used everywhere as well)
There is just so much less to worry about in an EV
Even if you need a whole new motor (and I can't think of any likelihood of that EVER happening) it would still cost you less than half the price of a new head for a delica, and the head is only half the engine!
The only reason they didn't take off a hundred years ago was the lack of a national power grid (I think we've overcome that one now...)

Hey I'm all for electric cars. I'd buy one tomorrow if I could. And I agree, they will be commonplace within one generation, I think.

Perhaps it was a FUD technique of my mechanic (to use Marsgal42's awesome word), but he was not painting a pretty picture of even the current hybrids. 1. the battery is warrantied for __ years (8? can't remember), and when it goes it is major $$$ to replace (like $8,000). 2. Fire fighters won't go near them when responding to accidents if there is a possibility of battery damage or fire 3. other stuff I can't remember (Hey, maybe he felt his livelihood was being threatened).

Maybe an electric engine is less than a Deli head (although I'd like to see the facts behind that statement because it seems a little far fetched based on the price of electric cars today ), but an $8000 battery sure isn't.

My point was that folks here are talking like this is a simple machine, but we're talking about a highly sophisticated machine. There would be much computer technology on them (at least as much and probably more as the current cars). That's not simple.

We're talking like it's a toy electric car that you can put on your workbench and tinker with. But it's something that will move and protect your family - air bags, abs, luxury items, and all the other stuff that goes into cars today. Plus the extra stuff that would go in with electric car technology. There may be less engine parts for maintenance, but there are other parts (not in gas cars) that will need caring for. I just think the "alot less maintenance" statement is a bit of wishful thinking.

An electric engine is different and waaaaay better for the environment than an internal combustion gas / diesel engine. It may have less moving parts than a gas engine (I don't know enough about either to make that statement). But does that necessarily make it simpler? I feel safer tinkering with a Delica engine rather than an electric engine that could kill me if I touch / cut / accidentally pierce the wrong part.

But like I said, once they are here and affordable, I'll be lining up. But I will be budgeting the same amount in our monthly budget for maintenance as I do now.

[konadog]

While I agree that electric cars are way less complicated and therefor have fewer maintenance requirements and that they obviously have no or at least WAY less direct emission issues, I still have to wonder where we are going to get all this electrical power from - more coal fired generators? Everything has a price, and usually a negative consequence. Just look at wind power "clean and free" OK, until you see vast swaths of land covered with these great windmills and masses of dead birds and bats at their bases. When they first came up with gas cars everyone was excited 'cause "they're clean - no more horse shit!" and we all know where that lead... I hope to see solar panels on roofs and mechanisms that will charge batteries when going downhill and the like, but have no illusions that we will ever have the freedom to travel as far and fast as we currently enjoy without further decimating the world's ecosystems. Me thinks we best get used to walking...

[Schwa]

1. the battery is warrantied for __ years (8? can't remember), and when it goes it is major $$$ to replace (like $8,000).

That's definitely FUD, the battery has never cost that much on a hybrid - closer to $5000 back in the early days before they were making money selling them, and now it's closer to $2000 for a new battery - a rebuilt/used one would be much cheaper still. The other thing is we still don't know how long the batteries will last - they are treated like royalty by the car's computer (never discharged less than 40% capacity, etc) and so far there haven't been mass failures, so we're probably looking at 15 years or more.

2. Fire fighters won't go near them when responding to accidents if there is a possibility of battery damage or fire

This is untrue as well, first of all if it gets in an accident there are deceleration sensors that disconnect the battery from the rest of the car before damage can occur to the car, so there's no electrical danger even if you have to cut the car in half to get someone out... This is one of the reasons they're expensive, lots of little gizmos and tons of testing to ensure safety. Second - the battery itself is MUCH safer than a normal flooded lead-acid car battery that vents out explosive hydrogen - NiMH doesn't vent any gas and isn't a danger to people when ruptured, plus they put it in a very safe place in the car, typically they can be recovered undamaged from very otherwise totalled cars

3. other stuff I can't remember (Hey, maybe he felt his livelihood was being threatened).

Maybe an electric engine is less than a Deli head (although I'd like to see the facts behind that statement because it seems a little far fetched based on the price of electric cars today ), but an $8000 battery sure isn't.

In an electric car you're looking at a $5000 - $40,000 battery depending on chemistry, capacity and other features, and that IS the main expense on an electric car, but right now there's no real mass production - NiMH patents are held by the oil industry and they won't license for production in anything other than hybrids now, so really they have to use Lithium Ion, which will take a while to drop in price since there's no mass production of units for EV's at this time.

My point was that folks here are talking like this is a simple machine, but we're talking about a highly sophisticated machine. There would be much computer technology on them (at least as much and probably more as the current cars). That's not simple.

We're talking like it's a toy electric car that you can put on your workbench and tinker with. But it's something that will move and protect your family - air bags, abs, luxury items, and all the other stuff that goes into cars today. Plus the extra stuff that would go in with electric car technology. There may be less engine parts for maintenance, but there are other parts (not in gas cars) that will need caring for. I just think the "alot less maintenance" statement is a bit of wishful thinking.

It's not - really! You're right, it won't be stuff you can just tinker with (well, some will) but the reliability of the electric drivetrain is amazing, even in a hybrid, which still has a gasoline engine vibrating, heating, stopping and starting, etc... No clutch, no torque converter/transmission, no gears (or just two in some cases)... I think you have to experience it.

An electric engine is different and waaaaay better for the environment than an internal combustion gas / diesel engine. It may have less moving parts than a gas engine (I don't know enough about either to make that statement). But does that necessarily make it simpler? I feel safer tinkering with a Delica engine rather than an electric engine that could kill me if I touch / cut / accidentally pierce the wrong part.

Really, electric motors CANNOT kill you if they're not hooked up to power, which would never be the case if you were working on one... I've worked on lots of electric motors as a furnace tech, and the first thing you do is make sure there's no power to whatever you're working on... I guess it would be a little frightening "working on" a motor that you really had no knowledge about whatsoever, but really once you learn a bit about them it's not so bad, and WAY simpler with 1 or 2 moving parts.

While I agree that electric cars are way less complicated and therefor have fewer maintenance requirements and that they obviously have no or at least WAY less direct emission issues, I still have to wonder where we are going to get all this electrical power from - more coal fired generators? Everything has a price, and usually a negative consequence. Just look at wind power "clean and free" OK, until you see vast swaths of land covered with these great windmills and masses of dead birds and bats at their bases. When they first came up with gas cars everyone was excited 'cause "they're clean - no more horse shit!" and we all know where that lead... I hope to see solar panels on roofs and mechanisms that will charge batteries when going downhill and the like, but have no illusions that we will ever have the freedom to travel as far and fast as we currently enjoy without further decimating the world's ecosystems. Me thinks we best get used to walking...

Around here we have lots of excess hydro power at night (during the day we sell it to the US, that's why we "need" more generating capacity) and since that's when most commuter EV's would recharge it works out quite nice. The other thing that can, and I expect will happen is as new technology is invented to power electrical devices they can be incorporated and retrofit into EVs... Right now billions of dollars are being sunk into hydrogen fuel cells, which is just another way to generate electricity (although very inefficiently when the whole cycle is considered) but others with much less funding are working on devices that draw energy from the environment to produce electric power and as these technologies mature they can power EVs, unlike gas/diesel which is really restricted to a few liquid forms of energy that can possibly power them in the future. The flexibility of an EV allows it to be powered by today's conventional technology (diesel/gas "generators", ie hybrids), batteries, capacitors, etc. plus tomorrow's technology!

[The Pinkfingers]

Awesome, Schwa. Thanks for the response.

I think I would still budget the same amount for maintenance to start with, but if I ended up at the end of the year spending it on camping gear rather then car repairs, that would be fine by me! I'd sit in my brand new van tent and raise a beer to Schwa, wherever he was.

[marsgal42]

FWIW, people at the VEVA show were quoting about 5 cents a kilometer for their cars. One and a half cents for electricity, 3.5 cents for battery depreciation. This is less than 1/4 of what our Delicas cost to run around town.

There may be a lot of FUD about electrical systems, but I also know that the wires that carry serious power are clearly marked (bright orange - the manufacturers aren't idiots) and extensively protected. If you were to try to introduce gasoline now you would run afoul of health and safety requirements at every turn. That stuff burns, it leaks, it causes cancer and respiratory problems, and it makes explosive vapours. Yikes!

The environmental footprint of battery manufacture is not trivial, and must be taken in to consideration. It's a compromise I can live with.

I also think B.C. Hydro's capacity planning people should be shot. There has been no new capacity in over 30 years, and it's starting to hurt - some of which is real, and some of which is, sadly, market manipulation.

I've looked long and hard at a Prius a couple of times, but concluded it didn't fit my needs, no matter how much I wanted it to. An acquaintance in San Diego drove an EV-1 for several years, loved it, and was heartbroken when GM took it away. Even with GM's cynical approach (limited availability, lousy batteries, lease only, every attempt to discourage would-be lessors), there was a substantial waiting list for them.

...laura

[loki]

could be total propaganda and I will look into it more when I have the time, but I have heard from a couple different sources that a prius is actually worse for the environment than a hummer when you take into consideration the mining of the materials for the batteries and shipping them from country to country for all the processing steps and the recycling or disposal of them at end of life and repeat. just thought I would throw that out there and see how many people get pissed at me :( :P

[mararmeisto]

could be total propaganda and I will look into it more when I have the time, but I have heard from a couple different sources that a prius is actually worse for the environment than a hummer when you take into consideration the mining of the materials for the batteries and shipping them from country to country for all the processing steps and the recycling or disposal of them at end of life and repeat. just thought I would throw that out there and see how many people get pissed at me :( :P

Actually, there is the its initial footprint during production, there is not denying that. I can't find the numbers at this point, but yes, the hybrids have a comparatively large environmental impact when compared to almost ANY internal combustion engined vehicle: the batteries, the electric motor and the coating of the windings, the extra electronics, and the fact that all of them are still made in Japan and not on this continent (unless recently that's changed). Yes, all of those are concerns, but most will say the clock doesn't start counting until it is driven off the dealer's lot, but others say it begins at production. Then there is the post-production costs: disposal, renewal, etc.

The same argument can be applied to nuclear technology: what we use is no more dangerous than what was in the ground to begin with, it's just more concentrated. And as for "where do we put it?" and "what do we do with it?" I say put it somewhere people don't frequent - like the bottom of an abandoned mine. No, seriously, think about it: should we pile it up in the middle of downtown? No, obviously not because there tends to be a lot of people milling about the city square; but at the bottom of an abandoned mine? with signage to "Stay Out"? - I see no problem with that.

Same thing with the lithium in all these batteries, find a way to recycle them, harvest the materials for use again, or find somewhere to put it where it won't be a problem. And tell the dumb people to stay away from the rubbish pile.

[loki]

could be total propaganda and I will look into it more when I have the time, but I have heard from a couple different sources that a prius is actually worse for the environment than a hummer when you take into consideration the mining of the materials for the batteries and shipping them from country to country for all the processing steps and the recycling or disposal of them at end of life and repeat. just thought I would throw that out there and see how many people get pissed at me :( :P

Actually, there is the its initial footprint during production, there is not denying that. I can't find the numbers at this point, but yes, the hybrids have a comparatively large environmental impact when compared to almost ANY internal combustion engined vehicle: the batteries, the electric motor and the coating of the windings, the extra electronics, and the fact that all of them are still made in Japan and not on this continent (unless recently that's changed). Yes, all of those are concerns, but most will say the clock doesn't start counting until it is driven off the dealer's lot, but others say it begins at production. Then there is the post-production costs: disposal, renewal, etc.

The same argument can be applied to nuclear technology: what we use is no more dangerous than what was in the ground to begin with, it's just more concentrated. And as for "where do we put it?" and "what do we do with it?" I say put it somewhere people don't frequent - like the bottom of an abandoned mine. No, seriously, think about it: should we pile it up in the middle of downtown? No, obviously not because there tends to be a lot of people milling about the city square; but at the bottom of an abandoned mine? with signage to "Stay Out"? - I see no problem with that.

Same thing with the lithium in all these batteries, find a way to recycle them, harvest the materials for use again, or find somewhere to put it where it won't be a problem. And tell the dumb people to stay away from the rubbish pile.

Don't get me wrong I want this stuff to work and to find alternatives, I like Electric cars too, but that just moves the problem to a place that should be but isn't as regulated, a power plant (I know that BC is mostly Hydro power and that is "clean" but does anyone factor in the vast mountain valley that used to be habitat of tons of wildlife being flooded? but still it is cleaner) When we start to get off our ass and start using solar, wind, geothermal, tidal power, what ever, on a large scale I will be a happy camper. Turning your hybrid into a plugin hybrid would probably help lots I would think though. anyways I'm rambaling on and don't way too much "devil's advocate"

[mararmeisto]

Don't get me wrong I want this stuff to work and to find alternatives, I like Electric cars too, but that just moves the problem to a place that should be but isn't as regulated, a power plant (I know that BC is mostly Hydro power and that is "clean" but does anyone factor in the vast mountain valley that used to be habitat of tons of wildlife being flooded? but still it is cleaner) When we start to get off our ass and start using solar, wind, geothermal, tidal power, what ever, on a large scale I will be a happy camper. Turning your hybrid into a plugin hybrid would probably help lots I would think though. anyways I'm rambaling on and don't way too much "devil's advocate"

Not so much rambling as pointing out valid concerns. Of course, with everything we do on this planet, there is a trade-off: if we use this thing, something else won't be available; if we plant this, we can't plant that; etc, etc, etc.

[Schwa]

I'll just get me a nice quiet 5kw diesel generator, convert it to WVO and charge my EV or PHEV with that! Minimize costs AND CO2 footprint, somewhat... And I agree the environmental footprint of hybrids and EVs is bigger than standard ICE vehicles, but there hasn't been 100 years of manufacturing, innovation and improvements in efficiency... Already within 2 generations electric motors are getting more compact (requiring less copper), as well as inverters and batteries, so I think we're well on track to make hybrids and EVs that don't have as big of an environmental footprint difference as they do now... There's always some prices to pay for cutting edge technology at the beginning, unfortunately, but with the way our central banking financial system controls the world, we have little choice in the matter.

[MadB0mb3r]

Well if you have questions about how our government is giving away our rivers to private companies for "Green" power
you shall find this site informative and disturbing.



http://www.saveourrivers.ca/

[The Pinkfingers]

I'd like to see more done with tidal power, especially in BC.