glow plugs clicking in and out while engine running and hot

[jessef]

Fuel lines from tank or injector washers ?

[Green1]

the ones I did were where they attach to the fuel filter, that obviously didn't solve the issue (or at least it solved it for only 1 day), so I'm now going to look at the injectors I guess...

[mararmeisto]

Okay, so I changed my two-wire temperature sensor, and the excessive-clicking-when-engine-hot has gone away. Temperature gauge on dash reads correctly once again (without wavering all over the place). This is what I found during my investigation:

• -the single-wire temperature sensor DOES NOT go to the dash
  -the two-wire temperature sensor goes to the dash and the ECU
  -only plumber's tape is required to 'seal' the sensor in place (the guy at Lordco gave me a strange look when I asked for Nut Locking sealant 4171 )

The following is the readings of the thermistors (new/old)

• -at 0 degrees: 11.5k ohms/75.5k ohms (sitting in a pan of ice cubes)
  -at 80 degrees: 360 ohms/12.5k ohms (suspended in a glass of nearly-boiled water)

Because a thermistor's resistance is inversely proportional to temperature, the value goes down as the temperature increases. Trouble was, when the engine was hot, the 'dead' thermistor was still registering like it was 'cold' and thus 'firing' the ECU to activate the glow plug circuit.

Short of it is: repairs complete, starts like a wonder in the cool of a Victorian morning, and isn't a problem when the engine is warm.

Green1, how is your smoking problem? Got it nailed down yet?

[Green1]

-only plumber's tape is required to 'seal' the sensor in place (the guy at Lordco gave me a strange look when I asked for Nut Locking sealant 4171 )

I used lock-tite brand high temperature thread-sealer, however I'm pretty sure the last person used teflon tape ("plumbers tape")

Smoking isn't really my problem... very hard starting is my problem, obviously air is getting in to the fuel system somewhere when sitting over night, I just don't know where.

I was going to look at it last night, but I got dragged out to a movie night with my girlfriend, and I was going to look at it tonight, but it's miserable out there right now! tomorrow is busy... so I guess I'll try friday...

[JMK]

I started to get random clicks from ECU when the engine was warm. I read elsewhere that the electrolyte that Mistubishi used in their capacitors in the early 90's inevitably failed after as little as 6 years and that it is imperative to rebuild any factory Mitsubishi ECU from that era, so I did. Seems that from about 1988 to 1994 a number of Japanese auto companies bought these capacitors from a vendor (Rubycon) who didn't engineer the parts for the abusive environment that a car puts electronics through. So, the capacitors broke down, leaking all their electrolytic material out. This didn't just ruin the capacitor—it happened to ruin a fair number of the parts around it on the board. The problem was pretty widespread, ranging from 1988 to 1994 and hitting Mazda, Mitsubishi, Honda and Nissan. By about 1995 things were under control in Japan.

In the meantime I installed a manual switch to activate the glow plugs. When the ECU reapirs were complete the difference in starting was quite remarkable, I noticed I no longer had to touch the gas anymore, just hit the key and it started right up and idled like a charm. There was nothing I could do massaging the manual switch that could duplicate how much better the ECU made it. Then when it got colder it once again was harder to start and I got black smoke. However I 'think' I may even be missing the initial clicks again so I'm thinking that the rebuilt needs to be checked as another capacitor may have failed again already. In the meantime, I sent my injectors to GCL for testing and they told me that they had poor spray and atomization patterns and the nozzles were burnt. They are going to rebuild them at $465.00. Then I'm going to have the timing done dynamically, which will run around $175.00.

What I'm learning is that with these machines all the links in the chain have to be tested:
- the ECU should be rebuilt if it is stock because it seems impossible that a stock ECU could still be functioning properly.
- the injectors should be tested professionaly (cost is $55.00).

Looks like now I should also investigate the temperature sensors as well.

[Green1]

- the ECU should be rebuilt if it is stock because it seems impossible that a stock ECU could still be functioning properly.

The stock ECU on mine, and on Erebus' Delicas both appear to be working fine, in addition, an inspection of the internals reveals no compromised components, and no bad solder joints.

It is quite possible, and even quite likely, that the stock ECU is fine, yes it is something that CAN fail, but that doesn't mean that it HAS.

- the injectors should be tested professionaly (cost is $55.00).

This is something I'm starting to think about doing, though I'm starting to think that my current "issue" is likely the injection pump seals... it's pretty apparent that air is getting in to the system, it's just a matter of figuring out where...

[EricN]

Try the hand primer before you turn the key. If it starts normally, you know you are leaking fuel somewhere. Then start crimping the hoses after you shut down, work it untill you figure out where the air is coming in.

[Green1]

Try the hand primer before you turn the key. If it starts normally, you know you are leaking fuel somewhere. Then start crimping the hoses after you shut down, work it untill you figure out where the air is coming in.

there aren't many hoses to "crimp" and I'm relatively certain it isn't one of the 3 there are... I'm also fairly sure the problem is closer to the engine than that. this leaves the connections at the injectors, or the injection pump itself.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'm leaking air in, but not fuel out, so I can't look for the fuel and tell where it is! (everything looks quite clean)

[delicat]

JMK,

$465 for rebuilt injectors?!? I'm sure you can save a bunch by getting good used one or trying somewhere else, that's a lot of $$$! Have you spoke with CVI, CCAutos, Mardy... I don't even think new ones would come to that cost?

Green1, Mararmeisto, thanks for the chip on mis-behaving glow plugs (Temp. sensor). I saved this info in my Nice-To-Know folder...

David

[JMK]

I consulted with John Hamilton at Rocky Mountain Imports before I commited to the rebuilt units. He recommended I go with the rebuild from GCL. Not only has he used GCL in the past, they were originally recommended to me by the head mechanic that runs our 20 bay garage at work, who also has used them to service out multi million dollar fleet for years.

- New injectors would cost close to $700.00 and would have to come from Japan, hence a longer wait.
- New nozzles would run about $200.00.
- GCL said that rebuilt injectors are better than simply replacing the nozzles, it's got something to do with the spring calibration, etc.
- The $55.00 test fee is included in the rebuild, so the rebuild is actually costing about $410.00.

I wasn't aware that CVI or Mardy could rebuild injectors and dynamically tune a diesel for less than that. I'm not too keen to spend $300.00 to have my injectors ultrasonically cleaned and pump rotated using a dial guage, that I can do myself if I can find anyone that has a dial guage that fits a Volkswagen that I can borrow. $200.00 to have an acoustic device attached to my fuel lines so it can be dynamically tuned doesn't seem too bad in comparison. If It didn't take 2 days of driving and a few hundred dollars in gas and ferry fees, I'd take my unit to Glen at C.C. Autos to be tuned because he is simply the best there is. In fact we drove through Coombs a couple of weeks ago, but when you have a choice of staying in a B&B in Coombs for a few days, or being on your board in the surf on Long Beach instead, Coombs always loses out (that trip ran about $500.00 in gas and ferry, which is more than rebuilding the injectors in Calgary).

On the ECU, previous to the rebuild, I sent it to Calgary to Martin at Active, where a Delica owner active on this forum previously worked. Martin did a visual scan of the board, and could not isolate the bad components. You cannot always 'see' a bad component any more than you can look at a patient in the hospital and visually determine they have lung cancer. And without a schematic from Mitsubishi that will allow you to diagnose the logic at the outputs you're flying by the seat of your pants. However the bottom line is it is a known fact about the problem with Rubycon components and you can either spend a few bucks for peace of mind or ignore it and keep wondering if things could be made better.

Speaking of that trip to the West Coast we just came back from, Angel, if you're reading this, did you ever get those issues with that Advantage fuel filter that left you stranded in Port ALberni resolved?

[Green1]

However the bottom line is it is a known fact about the problem with Rubycon components and you can either spend a few bucks for peace of mind or ignore it and keep wondering if things could be made better.

I can't agree. I refuse to spend money to fix a problem that simply isn't there. I have an electronics background and am pretty good at basic troubleshooting, I can look at the board and rule out the most obvious things, and I know enough to narrow down where the problem is through trying different things (like how I mentioned earlier in this thread trading the ECU with the one from a known good Delica), I can tell by sound and by feel that the ECU is doing what it's supposed to, it behaves exactly the way it does on every other delica that I've found where it works. telling people that this "must" be broken just because it is 15 years old and with no other symptoms of a problem is frankly ridiculous.

I do have a starting problem, but it is quite obviously not the ECU simply because of the way it is behaving, if it WAS the ECU, priming the engine wouldn't change anything. and if the ECU was having issues they would have gone away when swapping in an ECU from a different vehicle that wasn't having the same problem.

As for the rest... this is the problem I'm facing right now, I can tell air is getting in, but I can't tell where, and I don't really have any clue as to how to narrow it down... I'd love to take it to CVI or CCAutos to have it looked at, but it is an awkward trip from Calgary, and if it does come down to that, it won't be happening until November. (I don't suppose either of those shops offer "loaner delicas" do they? it would make the trip much easier if I wasn't stranded once I dropped the vehicle off...)

[MardyDelica]

Hi,JMK,
we usually dont change the injector, only nozzle tip. if we see that the nozzle tip is bad we recommend to change it.in order to do that you need to know about this. but if the injector is bad as the cause of wear & tear then we replace it, its hard to explaine.
even you buy new rebuild injector but dont know the proper setting as if he dont know the proper setting still will have a Hard time to fix it. its takes time & experience to learn on this kind of field.
even you change it with new rebuild injector & you dont do the timing right still will not work properly, it will not runs good .
the way we do it is to maximize the power output to your pump & timing in the engine to give you more power than what we have on a stock delica.
i mean on this area of tuning is depends if you are used it on this type of engine. i cannot say anything to any diesel mechanic that maybe they cannot do it. but its a trade by any mechanic that they learn for long time & experience towards this engine,
its like tuning of gasoline high performance. need time to do more testing if your not used to it. not all diesel mechanic know everything about diesel engine tuning the pump & engine. it takes time to learn.
again this is just my opinion & everybody has there own way to fix this engine whether he is a experience diesel mechanic or gasoline mechanic & i do respect each individual who are on this line of work.
its just not easy;
Hope this help:
Cheers;

[JMK]

Thanks Mardy,

As mentioned above, for those of us in Alberta a quick trip to the coast to find someone with experience is not always possible, so with time and more people in Alberta buying JDM someone in Calgary will eventually become competant once they get some hands on. In the meantime I'm fairly confident that GCL will be able to provide fast and pricey but suitable service as far as the fuel injection system goes. Someone explained to me, the way dynamic timing works is that the equipment pretty much tells the operator if the diesel engine is optimally timed or not, due to a microphone that is attached to the fuel line at the injector, sounds like it's hard to get it wrong. I would have been tempted to go the cheaper route of just replacing nozzles, but as there are quite a few other parts in the injector, I felt it safer to do the whole thing once it is out and before you spend good money getting the timing just right.

I suppose before it comes up I won't be going to Pro Active anytime soon either. Last week I met a Calgary couple in Two Jack campground driving a JDM Toyota Diesel Van. They told me a story that had something to do with a simple missing bolt not replaced during reassembly (relating to their manifold I think they said), that caused them subsequent grief. They said they were unhappy with a few aspects of doing business there, so it looks like there is still a need for a decent garage specializing in JDM in Calgary.

The problem with not being pro-active regarding the bad capacitors used by Mitsubishi extends well beyond being in denial with the attitude, "well mine is still working fine". For one thing, they will fail according to dozens of posts you can find using Google. Even though your van may still be drivable, the longer you let the problem go the more likely you will end up with a hole in your ECU's PC board or with several blown proprietary components on the board that cannot easily be sourced like a capacitor can. Then you will have to dig a unit up in the junkyard or buy a new one from Mitsubishi for $1100. The peace of mind that I bought for a $200.00 rebuild if my ECU is still working when its -20 this winter will seem well worth it. For those with the inclination and a soldering station, you can easily replace the capacitors yourself for a few bucks and a couple of hours of your time. When doing a Google search I came across this guy in Calgary that sells capacitor sets for ECU's for $2.00 - $4.00:
http://members.shaw.ca/neveravacation/2dollarcaps/

[dfnder]

I know this may sound rediculous but is your tank venting properly?

[Green1]

I know this may sound rediculous but is your tank venting properly?

You're right, it sounds ridiculous... but to be honest, I have no idea... I think so though because I don't get a huge vacuum when I open the cap to fill. not sure how else to check that one...