Fuel leak discovery

[jaggedfish]

I have recently had problems starting my Deli when my fuel level in the tank was getting below 1/4 tank. Until now, I could smell diesel but could not find a leak anywhere which led to me thinking my fuel pump may be the culprit. Evidently not.

I arrived home this evening from a weekend away and discovered a small dark patch under the rear tank... yup diesel! Not a huge leak but enough to be concerning. This confirms my initial diagnosis of the starting issue. When the tank is full, no problem starting, when tank is getting low but not under my usual 500 km fillup mark, hard to start so problem must be lower in the fuel line. It appears to be in the fuel supply line at or near the top of the rear (reserve?) tank because it has been sprayed rather than dripped so it must be pressurized.

Soooo.... here's my questions:
1. I can't find a diagram in the Wiki of the dual tank setup - most importantly the hoses... is there one?
2. If I have to replace the fuel line, I would like to use Biodiesel friendly lines... what kind should I use and how much do I need and where can I get it?
3. Has anyone done this themselves?

I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty so as much help as I can get would be very much appreciated. I will try to document it all for future use by other Deli Dudes and Dudettes.

Thanks in advance for your help with the info... the quicker I can get it done the sooner I can post the fix.
Cheers!
Ian

[after oil]

the tanks are pretty easy to drop. on the rear tank you'll find 6 hoses! in the center of the tank, theres two 5/16"(or metric equivalent) hoses for venting air. and there are two 3/8" one is for the siphon between tanks, and the other i believe is out to IP there are also to 3/8" vent lines off to the side.
i could be very wrong about this, i separated my tanks for wvo conversion. all those hoses are hard to follow and hard to be sure what exactly is their purpose.
the rear tank is not a reserve tank. there is 75 liters total in the two tanks, split about 50l/25l the front tank is smaller

when you replace the hoses use viton hoses for biodiesel

[jaggedfish]

Thank you for the info After Oil, very helpful so far.

I looked further into the problem last night and am unsure whether one of the hoses is leaking or it is occurring at the point where the hoses join to the metal tubes from the top of the rear tank or the metal tubes themselves are the problem. I cleaned off the excess and haven't driven it since so I am hoping the leak location or diesel trail will be more obvious when I check this evening.

Can't believe the number of hoses in there! The 2 in question are on the side of the rear tank near the wheel (passenger side) leading to the top of the tank. The larger (presumably 3/8") connects the 2 tanks - the siphon as noted by After Oil - and the smaller (presumably 5/16") appears to go forward (I'm guessing to the fuel pump at the moment). Neither "rubber" (flex line) hose is very long and would likely be very easy to change as long as I don't have to wear any fuel - it's not very nice and doesn't qualify as a manly cologne.

As mentioned before the leaking fuel appears to be pressurized as it seems to have "sprayed" the surrounding areas rather than just "dripped off" the lines.

Any more feedback/info would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers!
Ian

[after oil]

a thought:
the fuel out to the IP wouldnt spray, i think, it would suck air and youre engine would quit (or lose power when under pressure, like up a hill)

but fuel returning might spray if the line is clogged. that being said, it seems almost impossible that a return line would have a clog b/c the fuel has been through the filter and the IP. maybe the hose is slipping off its nipple.

[BCDelica]

Glad you piped in Afteroil! Return from the IP would only spray if there was a blockage to the tanks, otherwise it's only steady light flow at idle.

Sounds like dropping your tanks (not a bad idea IMO to get that last little bit of grunge outta the bottom of each) and changing your fuel lines my be in order. My guess would be a one steel hose joint has some corrosion on the male fitting side of things, causing the union to leak. Upon first dropping our first Delica tanks, found some of those metal junctions benefited from a light sanding to clean the connection area. Also found that the fuel lines near the exposed junctions kinda stiff and showing surface cracks when bending; on a 50,000km, 16 year old vehicle!

And if you could do all that work without ending up smelling of Dino-diesel - good job!

[jaggedfish]

Well... too late about not smelling like dino-diesel. In the process of changing the clamps (first attempt at leak diagnosis), I managed to pull off the I/P line... Yay!... clothes now reside in the garage.

I agree with both of you on the no-pressure situation. Further to my previous... I thought I had it sussed after changing the 2 hose clamps. After an uneventful drive from White Rock to my office in Vanouver, things seemed to go well... until I left the office. Leak reappeared and worse this time. No power... had to stop on the 99 three times due to big power loss that wouldn't allow me to go more than about 80kmh.

So... the fuel leak only occurs after the engine has been shut off - confirming that it's not pressurized - so must be pulling (leaking) air in (mentioned as well). Now that the leak was more significant, it appears to be coming from higher up (on the metal tube side) and not at the unions. The tubes appear to be corroded and likely in need of replacement or repair if possible.

I will have to search for the step-by-step to drop the tanks or get it to a shop (if I can). Problem is... my tanks are full...

Thank you both for your input. Will update as I go and try to document the process if I can.
Cheers!
Ian

[after oil]

tanks are easy enough to drop, i think. its easiest of course on a hoist with air tools, but jacks or ramps will do.

you can drain all the fuel out into clean containers from the drain plug in each tank. but you may have to drop only one tank.

from memory, each tank is bolted on with 2 or 3 bolts and/or nuts on each side (front to back of van)

its nice to support the tanks on a jack or some bricks and planks or what have you. you can lower them slowly and get an idea where the hoses are connected. take notes or photos to make sure you get all the hoses right when you put it back together.

i would go ahead and change all the hoses with new ones, and maybe even viton hoses in case you ever burn biodiesel. you would also then eliminate hoses as you reason for leaks.
get all new hose clamps too and make them so tight the hoses cant turn or slip, but not so tight you strip the hose clamp. (i do it all the time, so buy ots)

if you got some tools and some time, its not hard, unless you get complications. if you got some money, and dont want dinodiesel on you, then it shouldnt take a shop too long to drop 'em, unless they get complications. i think they shouldnt.

[jaggedfish]

Great info After Oil and thanks for the encouragement. I am quite mechanically inclined but haven't ever touched a diesel so a little aprehensive. I am going to go to Greenline tomorrow to pick up some new lines (hopefully Viton) - not sure who else may have it in stock. I figure if it's apart then do it right the first time. My fear is the problem may be on the metal tubes that come out of the tank... I am quite sure the pipe unit is replaceable but not sure who would have them locally - maybe Mardy?

Any idea how much of each size line I might need? I was figuring abut 20 feet of each 5/16 and 3/8 and see what's left over at the end if the info isn't available. I will keep track of as much as possible and take photos and write it up.

Updates to follow after a weekend of laying on the floor.
Cheers!
Ian

[after oil]

20 feet of each is lots. you wont run out thats for sure.

nothings different about a diesel and a gasoline vehicle except the engine. and thankfully you dont have engine trouble

[BCDelica]

Good to hear things are looking up for you this weekend!

Having bought a whole pickup assembly, from CCAuto, for the front tank for an excellent price; the Delica part guru's should have one available if you need it.

20ft of both should be enough - can't remember which size you'll use more of. My Delica tank dropping days were several years and guess I trying to block those days where I received a diesel bath. Also try and ensure you use the good quality hose clamps; the cheap ones are a pain. Be gently with the filler connection; it's a tight fit to the front tank and the pop-in connectors, that hold the large rubber gromet seal the filling and venting hoses, like to go flying. It can be a dirty area in there to, maybe clean it first.

Would like to help, but seeing as I can't go out of the country now....

Good luck

[jaggedfish]

Aww... c'mon BCDelica... no flights available?... Didn't realize till now where you are hangin right now. Can't help but be a little envious. I appreciate the thought of helping anyway.

So... I picked up the fuel lines this afternoon. Couldn't the actual Viton lines but the folks at Greenline Hose and Fittings on Annacis Island have assured me this stuff is good for biodiesel. The product is G611A USCG Type A-1 Fuel Feed Hose... this stuff is thick, man! It is a marine grade fuel line approved by US Coast Guard for marine applications. The inner hose is the important part as the rubber has been modified to tolerate Biodiesel fuels according to Greenline experts.

I expected it to be quite expensive due to the specialized nature but it actually wasn't that bad. I bought 20 feet of each 5/16" and 3/8" fuel lines and the cost was just under $100 all in. I will report back as to how much actually gets used and how many clamps, etc are required.

I may be wrong on this but it seems "Viton" is a registered trade mark for a specific product and not the actual material in biodiesel tolerant fuel line. Sort of like the name "Jet Ski" (specific Kawasaki product) is to personal watercraft.

So, this weekend I begin the odyssey of tank removal. Not sure if I'm able to get the fuel pick-up assembly but will be checking things out when the tank(s) is removed and will see what is revealed.

I will put all this together and post as a separate feed the instructions for future reference including fuel line names again and supplier so no worries of it getting buried in a string of posts. If there is no news tomorrow or Sunday morning... send a search party...

Cheers!

[jaggedfish]

Okay... so far, I have successfully removed the rear tank. As mentioned by After Oil and BC Delica, it's not a clean job but it is relatively easy. The biggest concern is draining the tanks - I was unfortunate enough to have just filled up with diesel just before the problem occurred so it took a while to get the fuel out. Both tanks must be carefully drained keeping your trouble light well away from any splashing fuel - I turned mine off durng the process, only turning it on when needed to see - I would also recommend doing it outdoors for safety and health as you can get a pretty good buzz going.

The job would be much easier on a hoist but I managed with jack stands and a creeper. The hoses were easy to detach - I alternated the ends to be removed to make t easier to remember where to reconnect them. The tank bolts weren't too bad to remove altho the rear ones were rusty so will replace them - 2 bolts on the front and 3 bolts with nuts on the back. Take the bolts holding the skid plate off first as there will be less to manage later - the tank stayed put even after the last bolt was removed.It is difficult to get to the wire clip on the side of the tank but if you take the wires out of the 2 clips on the lip of the tank, there is enough slack to get the tank on the ground where it can be unplugged easier. The tank comes out very easily by sliding it to the passenger side and lowering it to the ground and out.

So... the verdict is the pick-up assembly that is in the top of the tank is quite rusty. Haven't been able to find a hole yet but it was dark when I was looking and I think it would be worth while to replace anyway if I can get one or replace the whole tank. Wouldn't be suprised if the leak is in those rusty pipes.

Additionally to the hoses mentioned by After Oil there are a couple of smaller ones under there as well - will figure out the size and write it down.

As I said before, I will summarize all this in another thread with pics later but this will help me remember when it comes time to do that. On to the next step.....

[after oil]

[jaggedfish]

Okay! Latest update....

Was having trouble finding parts locally (on the Mainland) and remembered seeing a post or two where Glen at CCAuto had come thru for people in need. I had been trying to find a pick-up assembly since last week under the assumption that was what I needed. As noted in my last post, my worst fears were confirmed once I had the original tank removed. No luck getting any positive answers so, out of desperation, I rang the CCAutos number on Sunday afternoon.... I was a little surprised when Glen answered - it was Sunday after all. After explaining my predicament, Glen reassured me he had an extensive supply of parts available and commonly couriers orders all over the place.

After a simple email with a photo of the top of my tank (to confirm the correct part), Glen phoned me at my office first thing Monday morning with the news he had a whole tank assembly available and was recommending I replace the whole thing as mine was in poor shape. He had quoted me $75 for a new pick-up assembly on Sunday and I was aprehensive about the cost of the whole thing... $100 Okay, so now to get it couriered... Glen figured $40 to $50, which I thought was not bad especially considering my desperate situation. We hung up the phone so Glen could package the tank to get it out as quickly as possible. Another phone call from Glen shortly after that... the courier was at his shop and ready to go!

Long story short... the tank was delivered to my house in White Rock yesterday (Tuesday), 24 hours after it left CCAutos in Coombs on Vancouver Island. The courier cost?.... less than $28... again...

The tank is virtually brand new and after dusting it off... the dust was free! ... I transfered the lines and reinstalled the tank, reconnected everything and primed the system... bingo bango!... she's alive!

Everything went smoothly for the most part. I decided to drain any water out of the fuel filter prior to priming - might as well because you gotta prime it anyway. Minor problem... after closing the the drain on the bottom of the filter, it wouldn't stop dripping. I removed the valve again and cleaned it (there's a small o-ring on it) and tried again... still dripping and the system would lose it's prime fairly quickly. I have installed a temporary fix by using a piece of old fuel line with a bolt in one end as a plug and installed it on the nipple of the drain - worked like a charm as the bus fired up easily this morning - no extended cranking. I would like to fix it right tho so any input there would be helpful.

Another little test while your tanks are empty... check to see if your low fuel light works... mine doesn't. I suspect I know why but the priority on that is lower than getting the bus running. More to come on that.

Another issue... the 3/8" hose size (tank to tank line) seems to be incorrect... it actually appears to be 7/16" if it's available. I couldn't get the 3/8" line on the tank pipes even by being a little forceful. I could've tried harder but due to time factor and necessity, I re-used the old line for now.

I took a bunch of photos while putting things back together so will try to assemble something that makes sense in the way of instructions.

A BIG thanks to Glen for all his help - I had thought to call him earlier, and should have. He has a ton of parts ready to go on shelves and can get them out quickly when you are in need. I suggest he should be first on the list to call for parts.

Cheers all!
Ian

[after oil]

i wonder if the brand new looking tank he sent you is actually my old tank! i got one from him so i could prep it for my wvo install while still driving the van and leaving my tank in.

to get 3/8 line on the nipples you could heat the hose in hot cooking oil (i used water, but later i figured oil is better, why introduce any more water?)

i have never seen 7/16 hose