Turbo Diesel's unaffected by altitude (proof provided)

[mararmeisto]

I'm still laughing while typing this down. Where do you find these images?
-Delooka

http://xkcd.com

[FalcoColumbarius]

Yes, I can say by this argument that I am beginning to understand the waste gate and turbocharger much better.

My barometric altimeter goes from -500 metres to + 3,000 metres. From -500 to +1,900 metres the lines are in white. At 2,000 metres they become orange.Calgary's Elevation is at: 1,048 metres (3,438 ft). Roger's Pass is at 1,330 metres (4,364ft). My flat is at 100 metres. in my drive to Calgary I didn't experience and real loss of power or black smoke in the mirrors.

Located at an altitude of 5,360 metres (17,590 ft), the South Base Camp to Mount Everest is in Nepal. When the Sherpas climb to the South Base Camp carrying twice their own weight ~ they do smoke... cigarettes ~ but that has little to do with the barometric pressure.... Actually, for all I know maybe it does.

So the way I am seeing it now is that my waste gate is a sort of governor for the overall RPM of the turbo, is this correct? And when the barometric pressure decreases due to increased elevation does the waste gate compensate with how much PSI it is allowing to the turbo?
So... thus far, gentlemen ~ the orange lines on my barometric altimeter are telling me that I am getting into serious loss of pressure to where my waste gate will no longer be able to compensate.

Am I right? Am I right?

Falco.

[psilosin]

Finally!!!!!! you finally get that an adjustment needs to be made, before this post you have always insisted that the vehicle magically does it all itself... but you finally admit I was right all along and something needs to be adjusted!

Lol I said all along that there is MANY adjustments that you can make...add inability to read to the list of your faults. It is YOU who all along has continued to state that the ONE & ONLY high altitude adjustment that could be made was turning down the fuel delivery and that this one adjustment both reduced smoke AND ADDED power. Thats BS of course. I have questioned you many times if you were not mistaken in your regurgitation of someone elses work and the 'adjustment' was in fact not a bit more involved...like it is with every other vehicle. If turning down the fuel was the ONLY thing that was done...you should be happy that this thread has shown you that there are things you can do to further optimize your engine.

If that doesn't underline your complete lack of understanding of the internal combustion process... Fuel doesn't burn without oxygen... it never has, and never will, doesn't matter if you're talking diesel, gas, wood, paper, magnesium, or ANY other combustible material, the air and fuel always have to mix in an appropriate ratio for complete combustion to occur. if you don't get enough air, the fuel will not burn completely and you'll get smoke, you'll also loose power as you choke out any complete combustion that could have happened.

Once again displaying your dog like yes/no black/white intellectual prowess. How does saying that diesel engines do not operate at a fixed stoichiometric ratio even come close to equating to that they do not operate with oxygen. Cmon man lets keep the playing field to Earth not outer space...did you get bumped a lot on the head because there is something very very very wrong with the way come to conclusions. I'll leave it up to you to do some research on diesel engines...trying to teach you about simple wastegates was a FAIL so I'm not even touching this one with you.

if you turn down the fuel, you will get rid of your smoke at all boost levels, at the expense of a small amount of power (when compared to operating at sea level with full boost)

Thats what I said all along. Maybe go re-read and you will see what was questioned was YOUR assertation that turning down the fuel made the power the same as it was at sea level and I said that was not possible and asked you multiple times if OTHER adjustmenst were also made like altering boost ramp etc etc so that it was more the off boost/low boost fuel levels that were lowered. Thank you for finally agreeing with me that turning down the fuel will reduce smoke but also reduce power!!!!!!!!!! Way to go Green1! YAY! This is a big step, as I know you HATE to admit when you are wrong.

however you will INCREASE your power as compared to a vehicle that has not been adjusted

only if you were severly over-fueling to begin with...but its nice to see that you are now changing your hardline stance and adding in the caveats that were missing from your earlier remarks now that you have seen the error of your ways.

You fail to offer any other explanation

Nope. I did not as I was too busy correcting you and your "no wategate" BS and you were too busy having a hissy fit to listen to others anyway. Now that you are warming to the idea that you can make some more fine tuned adjustments beside just turning down the fuel delivery to optimize your Delica's performance maybe we can talk shop.

[Mr. Flibble]

How a turbocharger works:
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[FalcoColumbarius]

Mr. Flibble, you are my god.

[Green1]

Psilosin, I give up, I just can't teach you how the world works over the internet, I have tried to show you the basics of internal combustion engines, how fuel, air, temperature, and pressure, all meet up to make power and make a vehicle move, I have tried to show you how changing any of those things affects a vehicle, however unfortunately, without you gaining a basic understanding of literacy, and grade school physics, it is obvious that there is no point in my continuing this discussion. I hope those that can read, and have a basic physics knowledge have learned something.

I will not continue in this thread as it is clear that you are incapable of learning.

[jwfchase]

Couldn't resist my 1.5 cents...

This is a POV from someone who only understands the basics of how a turbo works-- I'm am definitely not an expert, in fact, not even quite competent . However, here's how my (also limited) understanding of physics seems to support the idea that a turbo COULD automatically compensate for increase in altitude TO A POINT (though I DON'T know where that point is- based on the limitations of individual turbos. The following is an uneducated hypothesis that could either be supported or shot to shart by those of you more informed than me:

As you go up in altitude, atmospheric pressure on the intake side decreases- supplying less oxygen through the intake. However, atmospheric pressure on the exhaust side also decreases, resulting in a decrease of backpressure through the exhaust, equal to the decrease on the intake side. Would this not cause the turbo to spin faster in this "thinner atmosphere", with the end result being that post-turbo intake psi going into the engine would be more or less exactly the same?

Also, not particularly understanding how an IP works, would a decrease in atmospheric pressure on the IP cause it to deliver too much fuel, even if the turbo is operating more or less as it would at sea level? It seems to me (and hopefully someone COULD explain this better) that atmospheric pressure could affect the operation of the engine, but that the turbo and the IP are two separate issues.

[mararmeisto]

@jwfchase: you're on the right course.

The underlying issue to all this discussion, from my point of view, is 'in the mix': it's not simply a matter of adjusting your turbo to give you more boost for when you go climbing in the hills, for too much boost can be a problem. There needs to be a balancing with the IP, the wastegate (if there is one), and the blowoff valve, in order to optimise performance in a particular locale.

As I understand it, the point of the original post was to indicate how the turbocharger is the most accommodating piece of that whole puzzle because it has a degree of inherent self-adjustment built into the way it works: a decrease in ambient pressure allows for faster spooling which in turn provides greater output pressure. I would speculate the limit on the how fast the turbo could spin would be a function of the pitch of the blades of the turbine itself, the rate of flow of exhaust gases used on the input stage and the back-pressure from the piping connected to the output stage of the turbo (with or without an intercooler). Maybe in the end it's not so much a matter of 'unaffected' by altitude so much as 'less affected', especially when compared to a gasoline or non-turbo engine.

Finally, why all of this is an issue at all (or a point of conversation, as it were) is a matter of geography. Given the size of Canada and the distances some/a lot of us drive in these vehicles, our engines can experience a wide range of barometric conditions: sea level, high mountain passes, valleys, the Prairies, and for some in only the course of a day. Those of us in BC and Alberta (and driving back and forth between these two provinces) probably experience performance issues much more frequently than those who live in Ontario or Quebec where altitude doesn't vary as greatly. I know the Moon Machine had a difficult time climbing Kootenay Pass a couple years back, but that may have had more to do with us pulling a trailer than the turbo not being able to provide as much boost at 1700m!

[psilosin]

Psilosin, I give up, I just can't teach you how the world works over the internet, I have tried to show you the basics of internal combustion engines, how fuel, air, temperature, and pressure, all meet up to make power and make a vehicle move, I have tried to show you how changing any of those things affects a vehicle, however unfortunately, without you gaining a basic understanding of literacy, and grade school physics, it is obvious that there is no point in my continuing this discussion. I hope those that can read, and have a basic physics knowledge have learned something.

I will not continue in this thread as it is clear that you are incapable of learning.

Boo hoo hoo baby wants his bottle. Even in retreat you can`t make up your own insults and have to regurgitate what I said to you. How clever. Glad you can still hang onto your delusions after so many have shown you otherwise. Hope you took a few minutes to watch Mr Fibbles video he posted before you left the thread. Better luck next time Mr. MyTurboHasNoWastegate...one of these days just out of pure probabilities you might actually contribute something intellegent and do so with out sounding like a douchebag.

Its a win for intellegent people eveywhere now that you are out of this thread. Maybe now the rest of use can continue on and hopefully have some fun discussion without the constant annoyance of the human mosquito. Cya around sweet cheeks.

[FalcoColumbarius]

I know the Moon Machine had a difficult time climbing Kootenay Pass a couple years back, but that may have had more to do with us pulling a trailer than the turbo not being able to provide as much boost at 1700m!

It's also a bloody steep hill.

Has everyone watched the vid that Mr. Flibble posted? Seems to cover all the bases pretty well.

Falco.

[jwfchase]

It's also a bloody steep hill.

Has everyone watched the vid that Mr. Flibble posted? Seems to cover all the bases pretty well.

Falco.

Except wastegates. Anyone have a video on wastegates? (Spose I could go look it up muhself...)

[FalcoColumbarius]

How the Wastegate works.


Falco.

[jwfchase]

Ask and ye shall receive... (and quickly too!)

[jrman]

Wow...I think the original post + those two videos would have pretty much covered everything. On the other hand, the additional back and forth was rather entertaining on an otherwise boring Wednesday night.

Remember...give peace a chance!
And if that won't work, make sure they don't get up off the floor.

[Manitoba deli]

Thanks to those who continued the argument on my behalf while I was away from the forum. Great video's guys, thanks again. I do have to say, If anyone has ever considered purchasing a Panasonic Tough Book, DO IT. I was showing this thread to one of my fellow mechanics at work, and he spit a full mouth of coffee all over the keyboard. Drained it off and kept on reading.

Next week's lesson: Intercoolers