New power inverter installed

[FalcoColumbarius]

When you start your high compression diesel engine (21:1) Your battery(ies) power is redirected from whatever else is running, like a radio or inverter, and dedicated to starting the engine. Once the engine is running a big spike of power surges back into whatever else is running. That is where the damage is caused.

Falco.

[RichD]

I'm thinking about putting in an inline power connection switch which I saw at the boat supply shop near my work... I'm wondering if this is a good idea or whether it will produce the same effect when I 'throw' the switch. The switch is heavy duty one which you turn and a metal bar rotates to make the connection.

IMO this is not necessary if you have a proper battery isolation setup as you should not have the inverter on and loaded in an emergency start (combined batteries) situation. Turn it off or disconnect it (by way of Anderson SB connectors). You could use a high amperage rated switch if you prefer.


If you step back for a second, the root problem is dual charging with isolated discharging. The inverter is on the second (isolated) battery so it isn't going to get hit by any spike unless you combine the batteries. Also don't forget the rather expensive inline fuse that will probably (should!) blow before the inverter if you size it right.

IMO, your money is best spent on a charge relay, ideally with starter isolation. This gives you automatic battery isolation, starter isolation, and auto-combining for charging. Start there.

If you want the option to combine batteries manually for emergency self-boost, add a switch like I did but remember that, when combined, if your inverter is on and you kick over the starter it and the fuse will eat the spike.

[Artacoma]

Hey Rich it looks like you got the kit on page 37 of the blue sea catalouge?
I'm looking at the higher amperage relay on page 36, with the remote switch.
Do you think it would give me the same result using the remote switch instead of the large rotary switch you have shown?
By the way thanks for the cataloge link

cheers

[dfnder]

I'm thinking about putting in an inline power connection switch which I saw at the boat supply shop near my work... I'm wondering if this is a good idea or whether it will produce the same effect when I 'throw' the switch. The switch is heavy duty one which you turn and a metal bar rotates to make the connection.

IMO this is not necessary if you have a proper battery isolation setup as you should not have the inverter on and loaded in an emergency start (combined batteries) situation. Turn it off or disconnect it (by way of Anderson SB connectors). You could use a high amperage rated switch if you prefer.


If you step back for a second, the root problem is dual charging with isolated discharging. The inverter is on the second (isolated) battery so it isn't going to get hit by any spike unless you combine the batteries. Also don't forget the rather expensive inline fuse that will probably (should!) blow before the inverter if you size it right.

IMO, your money is best spent on a charge relay, ideally with starter isolation. This gives you automatic battery isolation, starter isolation, and auto-combining for charging. Start there.

If you want the option to combine batteries manually for emergency self-boost, add a switch like I did but remember that, when combined, if your inverter is on and you kick over the starter it and the fuse will eat the spike.

My Van only has one battery, I already have used an Anderson plug for the bass driver I have and it works awesome. I guess I couldput another one in for the inverter. I just wanted something easy that my kids could do while ile I'm driving or is that not advisable? I'm torn between ease of use and not having it needlessly at risk.

hehe thanks

[RichD]

My Van only has one battery, I already have used an Anderson plug for the bass driver I have and it works awesome. I guess I couldput another one in for the inverter. I just wanted something easy that my kids could do while ile I'm driving or is that not advisable? I'm torn between ease of use and not having it needlessly at risk.

hehe thanks

You could just turn off the inverter from the front panel or a remote panel.

If you really want a full kill switch, use any high amperage switch (like the one I linked above from Blue Sea) on the hot line of the inverter.

If you want a totally automatic solution for single battery + inverter setup, you could use a normally closed continuous duty solenoid and trigger it off the ignition switch.

[RichD]

Hey Rich it looks like you got the kit on page 37 of the blue sea catalouge?
I'm looking at the higher amperage relay on page 36, with the remote switch.
Do you think it would give me the same result using the remote switch instead of the large rotary switch you have shown?
By the way thanks for the cataloge link

cheers

Can you link the remote switch? I don't know what catalogue you mean; I'm using the websites' and browse/search engines.

The charge relay only needs to exceed your alternator's output; 85A is the highest stock output I've heard of, so 120A is tons.

[Artacoma]

Oops here it is- http://bluesea.com/files/resources/cata ... df#page=35
Its a link from the westmarine site.
The reason I was thinking bigger is I thought it should be matched to the starting system (275amps) and not the charging system. If my van is parked overnite on a skihill at -15 I really need both batteries to start.

Rich has done a beauitful job on cleaning up my drawing. But the solenoid should be at least 275 Amps for starting (not 100A as in the above diagram). Cheers, Jay TardisDeli.

Hmm yes I sized the solenoid based on the charge circuit (85A) but you are correct that when cranking the starter from both batteries in Dual we'd typically have half of the cranking load across the solenoid, and potentially all of it in Boost mode. So a 300A would be ideal.

[RichD]

Oops here it is- http://bluesea.com/files/resources/cata ... df#page=35 Its a link from the westmarine site.
The reason I was thinking bigger is I thought it should be matched to the starting system (275amps) and not the charging system. If my van is parked overnite on a skihill at -15 I really need both batteries to start.

I think its important to clarify again that battery isolation/combining is one problem, specific to dual battery setups with house loads/inverter. Combining for emergency starts is another problem, separate solution. They also have separate load requirements.

The isolator you linked is the same one I'm using - from the bundled kit. The isolator does not join your batteries for starting; it does exactly the opposite (see "starting isolation") to protect the Inverter/house loads from spikes. It only needs to be rated for charging loads (>85A).

If you want to join your batteries for emergency starts, you can add a switch in parallel with the isolator. See my post up-thread. The switch should be ignition rated >275A because it IS carrying ignition loads.

I bet you are wondering, if the isolator and the switch are in parallel, when you combine with the switch and start, aren't you exposing your isolator to that ignition load? The answer is no. The power has a large enough path through the switch, and the isolator is fine. (The isolator also has protection circuitry that will force it open in a spike situation. Also the starting isolation will open the relay. Either way, the isolator isn't carrying the load, the switch is.)


Regarding the quote, that refers to Jay's solenoid circuit in which he is carrying ignition loads and combining on the same switch:

Hmm yes I sized the solenoid based on the charge circuit (85A) but you are correct that when cranking the starter from both batteries in Dual we'd typically have half of the cranking load across the solenoid, and potentially all of it in Boost mode. So a 300A would be ideal.

I believe that its cheaper to have a 100-120A solenoid for day to day isolating/combining purposes and a heavy duty switch for emergencies. I also think that you can skip the switch if you live in Vancouver and never have to start your truck in -20 degree weather.


All that said, check this out from Blue Sea: http://bluesea.com/category/2/products/7622 Its a isolator/combiner AND an ignition rated solenoid in one. Has a few less features than the kit I got but I like that its compact. I know, more part numbers not really helping but hey.

[Artacoma]

I bet you are wondering, if the isolator and the switch are in parallel, when you combine with the switch and start, aren't you exposing your isolator to that ignition load? The answer is no. The power has a large enough path through the switch, and the isolator is fine. (The isolator also has protection circuitry that will force it open in a spike situation. Also the starting isolation will open the relay. Either way, the isolator isn't carrying the load, the switch is.)

Thanks I needed that it makes sense

I'm going to West marine tomorrow to get a price on: http://bluesea.com/category/2/products/7622
They aren't known for having deals but they seem to be the only distributers of Blue sea stuff.
I like the ability to have a slick dash switch and I think I should be able to shoehorn it into battery compartment maybe?
I'm going to take the batteries out on saturday and see if I can drop the bottom of the compartment to get some room.My brain is also wondering if I could relocate the coolant overflow bottle to get some room for fuses and switches. Hmmm going to have lift up the hood and poke around tonight.

[RichD]

I bet you are wondering, if the isolator and the switch are in parallel, when you combine with the switch and start, aren't you exposing your isolator to that ignition load? The answer is no. The power has a large enough path through the switch, and the isolator is fine. (The isolator also has protection circuitry that will force it open in a spike situation. Also the starting isolation will open the relay. Either way, the isolator isn't carrying the load, the switch is.)

Thanks I needed that it makes sense

You've heard the saying "path of least resistance"...

I'm going to West marine tomorrow to get a price on: http://bluesea.com/category/2/products/7622

If you are in Vancouver, don't waste your time. They have to order it in. I suggest making them commit to a sales order number or a call back cause I went in to pick up an order today and it had fallen through the cracks.

They aren't known for having deals but they seem to be the only distributers of Blue sea stuff.

Well they have a membership deal... and I would have saved money if I had done it at the start of this project.

I tried to explain to them about this thread and that we'd be interested in a Delica Club discount but they weren't getting the hint.

I'm sure that there is a way to source Blue Sea cheaper via the US but I'm too lazy and prefer the convenience of being able to return an item at the counter with no hassles.

I like the ability to have a slick dash switch and I think I should be able to shoehorn it into battery compartment maybe?

Risk of igniting fumes from the battery, per the manual.

If you look under your driver seat, that is where Mr. Mitsubishi put all the high amp relays... because there is room but also I think because there are no lead acid fumes. I opened that up last night to mount my standoffs for the inverter. If you know how to fish wire right, you could get from the battery compartment across to that air box compartment and mount your relay on the same wall as the glow plug relay and such.

(EDIT: further reflection on this - I was looking in Felix's truck and, with the snorkel, he had quite a lot of room in that compartment. Enough to install a dedicated electrical box. And the hatch is quite handy... Just a thought.)

I'm going to take the batteries out on saturday and see if I can drop the bottom of the compartment to get some room.

Be prepared to have to replace your battery post terminals. Mine fell apart after the first disassembly. Luckily I did the first teardown in the Kanuckistani Tire parking lot in Calgary lol.

My brain is also wondering if I could relocate the coolant overflow bottle to get some room for fuses and switches.

That is clever actually and could work as its below the batteries and I believe the gases in question rise. To be safe I'd cover the terminals or put a whole enclosed box in that void. Probably a similar effort to the air box but depends on if you are better at mechanical stuff or fishin wire.

It is a very busy in that compartment and I hate working in there, which is why I mounted up boxes inside the van.

[RichD]

updated my post with proper schematic and install photo

[RichD]

updated again, cover is installed.

FLUX CAPACITOR IS ONLINE!

[Artacoma]

Finally some time to wire in the Automatic Charging Relay with Remote switch
Switches from auto-both batteries charge and starting battery battery is isolated from house battery loads
-both batteries together for when you need the extra juice to start in cold weather
-fully separate incase you totally drain the house battery and don't want to take starter battery with it when you next startup
I have two crappy tire brand spiral cell AGM batteries 690 CCA
They are a bit smaller than stock so I was able to slide them back a bit and alter the hold down to get a bit of room
I also moved the coolant bottle over a bit and turned it's hold down sideways
The ACR is attached to piece of aluminum that is tagged to the battery tray and the cables basically hold it in place
I had a chunk of 1/0 cable so thats what I used, #2 would have been a bit easier to work with
The switch comes with LED's that I thought would be position indicators but they are just always on and bright so I disabled them
P.S. add a couple of weeks to whatever date West Marine gives you for non shelved items

[RichD]

Very nice remote switch Rik. Cover those hot terminals!

After a few weeks with the flux capacitor in service I can attest it works as desired. I can leave the inverter on all night long without a worry. Truck starts well on a single battery.

I have 2x 600 cranking amp batteries, not deep cycle. I don't push my accessory battery below 12.4v.

Next project is to move a bunch of stuff to the accessory battery (radio, power points, power shades and windows)...

[Artacoma]

Thanks Rich, terminals are covered , bought a battery gauge but I'm waiting to install it til I get my pyro and boost gauges