Water & Methanol Injection

[impalator]

A while ago, I started reading a lengthy post on this forum regarding the benefits of water/alcohol injection (more power, cleaner combustion, lower temps, everybody's happy...)

It always appeared quite utopic, despite the claims that the original poster made, i.e. this being proven technology that industrial and heavy duty diesels manufacturers (even north american car manufacturers) have used it at times etc. etc.

I have just received a new Summit Racing catalogue (I once ordered a steering wheel from these guys, and since, they send me regular "phonebook" sized catalogues...) while just casually browsing through the latest catalogue, I came across the following page:



Here they mention the benefits for Water/Methanol injection for general, everyday diesels in the most common North American Pick-Ups (Dodge, Ford, GMC) and offer a variety of complete systems.

Now, of course, we are talking about large displacement engines with 5, 6, even 7 liters of engine size and our meager 2.5's and 2.8's appear particularly weak-breasted in comparison... also I don't think that a 2.5 4 Cyl diesel would be too happy receiving a shower of water and methanol designed for a V8 or V10 engine three times its size...

In any case, I wonder if anybody on this forum has ever experimented with water/alcohol injection and if anybody knows of systems that are better suited to spray that stuff into a small 4 cylinder diesel.... Just trying to find some information... at this point I have neither, the disposable cash for such a system, nor the time to fiddle around with such stuff nor do I want to run the risk of damaging my Delica's powerplant... but I nevertheless find it quite intriguing and if they offer that stuff for widely available North American Diesel Pick-Ups, maybe it's not the last thing for a Delica either?

Cheers,
Chris

[mararmeisto]

What you 'save' in fuel you spend in methanol.

Straight water will give similar/same performance, but then you run into corrosion issues (unless you're using distilled water, which will cost).

Remember the grade 2 rendering of the law of conservation of energy - you can't get something for nothing. For a lot of those kits, in the end, you get 500-1000$ 'worth' of hardware for 500-1000$.

Personally, I think these kits would be good for towing or hauling, but not for everyday use.

[Mephisto]

I have about half an hour more and I'll be done with my install of a kit from a "full size" truck from that particular company. I'm going to be dynoing soon and will post the results. The kits come with different size nozzels and the instructions say to use dual nozzles, I'm just using one to limit the flow and there is also adjustment in the controller so you can set up flow rates, between the two I should be able to run the appropriate amount of water/meth. I'll post my results after a little set up, oh ya, this will be on my 2.8 manual truck rather than the 2.5.

[mararmeisto]

Should be interesting to see what the actual performance increase is.

How much is a dyno-run at the shop?

[Mephisto]

The dyno is free for me, buddies have one at their shop, we trade favors. I'll ask them their rates though.
I think I was too conservative withe the nozzle sizing, so I'll try a larger nozzle. I also think more boost will make the meth more effective but I don't want to adjust the boost until I get a baseline run on the dyno. So further updates will be posted.

[marsgal42]

Nobody has ever posted any numbers about this.

On a dyno you could get some numbers and know for sure. I've love to see a before-and-after comparison simulating driving the Coquihalla or Kootenay Pass (I've driven Gumdrop on both). Then we would know.

The most extreme driving I've ever done in Gumdrop was Merritt to Kelowna the summer before last. It was 40 in Merritt, and with the air conditioning off and the overdrive disabled, I was running about 2/3 of the way up the temperature gauge at 60 to 70 km/h up that insanely long grade.

...laura

[impalator]

Definitively, an increase in hp-output would be a very nice thing... would make for some better speed on the highway and up-hill... but that aside, I really wonder if this would indeed bring the EGT's down - as this is obviously one of the big concerns in turbo-diesels...

It'll be interesting so hear about the actual performance increase on the dyno-stand...

Cheers,
Chris

[fexlboi]

All I can say from my experience with Methanol injection on a Delica: Don't expect any big, noticeable difference.

[delicat]

Same here. I noticed I could only feel it if I was pushing the van up a hill, pedal to the floor. As soon as I hit the water/meth switch my boost would raise by about 2-3psi but couldn't even confirm if the van went faster. Didn't change a thing on my egr.

Might have been my set up? I haven't given up on the idea and my system will be going into my Safari...

Good luck Mephisto!

[Mephisto]

I put the larger nozzle in and my but tells me there is a difference in power although my EGTs have not dropped much if any, but if I'm making more power then it would make sense that I could give it less go pedal and reduce my EGTs while going the same speed. Oh well, we'll see if my but dyno is congruent with a real dyno. Oh yeah, as I said I think the meth injection will make more of a difference with more boost which I haven't turned up yet. So what I'm saying is right now the but dyno says only a small improvement in performance. I also did not put a nozzle preturbo although I may still try that.

[delicat]

I'd go for pre-turbo...

From the research I've done I found that pre-turbo was an issue on earlier kit where the spray was too large but on later kit people have run them pre-turbo for a few years with no side issues. I had mine pre-turbo for only 6 months but when I took it apart there were no signs of wear/corrosion...

(I'm just trying to get you to go pre-turbo 'cause I'm curious if your dyno but will feel even more power!)

Cheers!

[Chewy]

Good luck Mephisto, like others are saying, it'd be great to see some dyno figures.

[Mephisto]

So I'll be running it tomorrow evening, stock, stock with meth, upped boost, upped boost with meth, fuel and boost turned up and that with meth. I haven't decided how much boost to run without exhaust or a bigger cooler. Then I'll get around to upgrading the turbo, building a 3" exhaust and a front mount intercooler and dyno it again with that done and I'll set my pump timing on the dyno to see how that affects my graphs. We'll see how long it takes me to build everything being a cash poor student, lol.

[evo9speeddemon]

I run the meth/water injection kit in my mitsubishi evo 9 with great results.
i was able to up to boost to 28psi, lean it out to 11.0 a/f and add at least 5* of timing.
just make sure you get a good failsafe. labonte motorsports is what i suggest.

[Meanman]

I run the meth/water injection kit in my mitsubishi evo 9 with great results.
i was able to up to boost to 28psi, lean it out to 11.0 a/f and add at least 5* of timing.
just make sure you get a good failsafe. labonte motorsports is what i suggest.

FYI 11.0 afr is actually very very rich. Stoich is 14.7 and 12.5 -12.8 is typically where you get the best power... this is for gas only....not sure how diesel is calculated.