Uh-oh! L400 decided not to start.

[Rural]

Early yesterday morning, I left my wife with the L400 as I had a long drive ahead of me. About an hour out, my wife calls to tell me that the van won't start. My father came over and was able to get it to start by boosting it. He assumed it was the battery and took it for a half-hour run to charge it up.

Today, I came home from work and thought it was a good time to start it up and look it over. Sure enough, it wouldn't start. The symptoms are that it gives half a crank or so, then stops. If I just turn it on and wait for the glow-plugs to switch to low, instead of hearing a single click, I hear a rapid clicking. The same thing happens when the starter gets half-way through a crank. It isn't a good sound.

Voltmeter says battery is at about 10V. I'm going to try the charger on it. This is a relatively new battery. It's only about five months old. And it isn't like we've had freezing weather lately.

I've left a message with Mardy and am looking forward to his reply.

Any suggestions for things I should check?

We are a long way from anyone who has much experience in servicing Delica's, but are heading down to Vancouver in early July and will be dropping the van off with Mardy and/or CVI. It would be nice if we could at least get it to limp to Vancouver.

[Rural]

The good news is that 20 minutes from the charger got the van running. The bad news is that I no longer have much trust in my volt-meter. With the van running, it's reading about 5V. Then again, that might be a big clue.

More good news is that Mardy just returned my call and suggests that I replace the battery. If that doesn't work, we can look at other options.

Easy to do. Of course, I worry.

[jaggedfish]

Hey Rural!
If you are able to make it into the Big Smoke, I would have the charging system checked to be sure it is doing what it is supposed to. If the battery is newer, there may be a drain on it while the van sits. It would be unusual for a new battery to go bad but not out of the question. You may not need to replace the battery (altho warranty will help make that decision) as long as it will hold a charge after it has been charged up. I suspect if it hasn't been a problem previously, either something has been left on while the van was off or your charging system isn't charging and the van has been running off the battery alone which would eventually cause starting problems.

[Rural]

Ha! Solved it!

Here's the problem: I have a three year old son who loves to play in the van. On Saturday, he was in the van and left the fluorescent light on, but its lowest setting. Since I replaced all of the other lights with LEDs, I didn't suspect the lights as the problem. As it is just beginning to get dark, I figured it was worth checking. For once, I was right.

But it is was interesting to see how the van behaves with a nearly dead battery. Made me think the problem was far worse than it was.

I will sleep better with this problem solved. (And that's good, because I will be getting up every hour or so to bottle feed a lamb.)

Hey Rural!
If you are able to make it into the Big Smoke, I would have the charging system checked to be sure it is doing what it is supposed to. If the battery is newer, there may be a drain on it while the van sits. It would be unusual for a new battery to go bad but not out of the question. You may not need to replace the battery (altho warranty will help make that decision) as long as it will hold a charge after it has been charged up. I suspect if it hasn't been a problem previously, either something has been left on while the van was off or your charging system isn't charging and the van has been running off the battery alone which would eventually cause starting problems.

[TardisDeli]

EDIT: I typed this before you posted that your problem was the deeply discharged battery. Will still post this in case others need more info.
Cheers, Christine.
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Ahh, the rapid clicking is your clue, aka Morse Code clicks, need to replace coolant temp sensor. What follows here is based on L300, I assume L400 similar, but can any L400 expert confirm??

Problem is the coolant temperature sensor which checks the outside temperature via reading your coolant temp. Need a new one, only get genuine mitsubishi (check with John of RockyMountainImports.net or ccautos). Unless you can keep van indoors or coolant warm, then you risk burning out tips of glow plugs (ouch so very expensive to replace glow plugs) as they keep getting activated by the coolant sensor.

The temp sensor tells the glow plugs how long to stay on to prewarm the diesel before allowing the battery to start the engine. Sensor fault says oooh its too cold to risk starting the engine so it tells the glow plugs to turn on again which sucks power from the battery.

Batteries: They dont make em like they used to, the metal of the internal plates is often crap quality. Can you borrow a battery load tester, that will tell you a lot (make sure it can test a load up to 350 amps as our diesels have huge draw compared to gas cars). But if battery is going bad, it can harm the alternator (and vice versa).

Attached is an essay I wrote on this to others.
Where do you live? Happy to help you further if you need.
CHeers, Christine.
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My 2 Previous posting on similar topics:
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norther ontario - cold/no start:

Hi there, so I wrote a huge long series of tests below for you. Then I re-read your posting. It is a quick easy solution, very common problem, NOT GLOW PLUGS.

It is the sensor for the water coolant temperature. Big clue, the multiple glow plug relay clicks when trying to start.

Just email to John at http://www.rockymountainimports.net or glen and graham at http://www.ccautos.com as they can bill your credit card and mail you via greyhound ground an OEM Mitsubishi replacement. If they dont have in stock, I can phone around town and find who has one for you. You just screw it in. Sits near front of engine, about the size of my girlish baby finger, with 2 sensor spade plugs at the end. Its job is to test the coolant temp during the glow plug cycle, it tells the glow plugs how cold the external temperature is, thus assumes how long the glow plug relay needs to heat the glow plugs. Simple.

Feel free to email me via PM with questions, happy to help troubleshoot (easier if both us on phones looking at engine, can talk you thru locating stuff and confirm diagnosis, the noise is very distinctive).

Cheers, Christine.

----- My original long email, before i properly read your posting -------------

Agree with NVanAdm, do NOT wait after the click. Trust NVanAdm (translate his name to North Vancouver Adam) used to live here, is an experienced and super nice delica owner, we were sad when he moved to Ontario.

Not sure what all you've tried, so I start from scratch here. I have talked many new owners thru this process at our local meets, so my comments are based on lots of experience.

TEST: START PROCEDURE: Just to confirm step by step, for L300, turn off all other electronics to keep drain on battery off, and also so you can hear your delica talking to you (no radio, no heater fan, no headlights). Do not touch fuel pedal or throttle (iF your engine idles too low when warm, ie when you came home last night, then leave the throttle set to a nice idle based on warm engine). Gear in park or neutral (of course, you are certain this starting problem is not related to the Neutral Safety Switch which prevents starting unless all gears are safe, but this NSS does go haywire if you accidentally cut the wire for it).

Turn the key to accesory, within 7 to 9 seconds, hear the click behind your butt, immediately turn the starter key.
(If I wait more that a few seconds after that second click I can not start, even in warm vancouver weather). Waiting too long to start the engine is a common problem when people install remote car starters, as they default to 15 seconds start time.

Even if you don't hear the second click, ie the relay mother board is bad, still turn key to start within 7 seconds.

Do you hear the second click. If not, it is possible to remove the mother board from behind your butt (I think Laura Marsgal42 posted a photo and instructions about 2 or 3 years ago). Take it to a little old man who repairs TVs and he can look at the board, often just a resistor needs to be replaced and soldered on.

If it is very cold, you can do the double click to warm. This means turn the key to accessory, wait for the second click. Immediately turn the key to off. Now turn the key to accesory again and wait for the double click behind your butt; this second set will take only 3 to 5 seconds instead of the usual 7 to 9. Immediately turn the starter key. It is possible to do this 3 or 4 times, but it is hard on the injector ends. If they over-overheat, can break off, fall into engine, ooOps).

TEST: Does it run well once it is warm? If yes, continue reading the next tests below.
If no, look at fuel injector pump, the rubber seals inside die with age (you will have lotsa black smoke on start and uphills); or look for clogged fuel lines (will hesitate on uphills); or change the air filter (BIG PROBLEM, so try starting without air filter on; major cause of rough running when engine warm and going uphill); do you have fuel leaks (ie oily patch under the IP or filter, if so replace any o-rings and fittings (this affects air fuel mix, if the fuel has dripped down overnight, then you need to turn the key to accesory a couple times to get the fuel pumped back up). Can you park overnight (or for at least 8 hours somewhere toasty warm just to see if problems continue).

TEST: do you get the morse code clicks? This means that you hear multiple clicks behind your butt, ie 5 or 6 quick clicks, or many more clicks lasting up to a minute or so. Or while you are first driving getting multiple clicks. Solution: the sensor for water coolant temp is dead. You will never get a good start until the coolant water is about 50 degrees F or so, not sure what the exact temp is (but if the weathr is warmish then the coolant is warmish). It is easy to replace this, but is a genuine Mitsu part, about 25 dollars. TESTING: will it start when its been overnight in a warm garage? A work around test might be to drain your coolant, take indoors and heat it up, then reinstall into radiator (I guess it would need to be hot enuf that the cold metal doesnt cool it too much). I know it seems silly, but this coolant sensor is the major cause of non starts in winter if everything is working ok, ie if it runs fine once it is warm, then look into this.

TEST: maybe fuel is not winterized OK, or adding WVO Waste Veg oil or anything that is settling overnight into layers (those layers clog the fuel system). Drain a liter of fuel, put in glass jar, sit beside van overnight, has it got layers. Layers are bad, think of it as a solid layer of a soap bar (same ingredients) in the fuel lines.

TEST: park uphill? My L300 hates to start when parked uphill in cold weather (probably something to do with where the fuel pick up is), so park level or face downhill.

TEST: does each of the 4 glowplugs work? AT exactly sthe same voltage? often just one gets burnt out, or the tip burns off (imagine the end of a cigarette ash falling off). They must all have the same voltage, which is why all 4 must be replaced at the same time as the resistance varies with old age. They can be removed and tested with 12 v battery current and alligator clips (dont try this unless you really know what you're doing) within 2 or 3 couple seconds should see end glowing red like a hot cigarette at night. What writing is on the glowplugs (voltage, brand, colour). Only genuine OEM ones work consistently well, just not worth risking non-oem.

TEST: Did it ever work well in winter with the set of glow plugs you have? This is an important question. If you have a set with the wrong voltage (which does happen, mechanics can make mistakes) then this is an important clue.

TEST: Battery good? It is amazing the difference when using a good starting battery vs a deep cycle battery. I run a single 33 series starting battery, not 2 of the smaller 24 series (the better batteries have thicker metal plates etc so more oomph). A lesser battery will eventually start the van but that is because the multiple start attempts have also prewarmed the glow plugs which prewarmed the diesel, and also pumped more fuel up from the tank, and also maybe moved some of the coolant around to start it warming, etc etc, so it disquises the fault. Any chance that something is draining the battery overnight (stereos take a bit of power to memorize your station presets, as do things like gps). You mention using the Pajero battery helps. So I wonder about rusty battery cable connections. Also tighten your Battery cables, honestly about 25 percent of starting problems are loose cables. Clean / roughen the battery terminal, and inside the connectors before reinstalling. The pajero battery helping the start seems to be a major clue you should follow up. Get a load tester on your battery (as well as the pajero for curiousity), is the paj also a diesel?

Let me know, PM me with Questions.
Cheers, Christine.
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My other Post:
L300 wont Start:

Ah ha, the click click is the key here, we call it the Morse Code Click. Very Common problem.
Assume you have a diesel.

You need to replace the Temperature Sensor, yes it is the proper name for the genuine Mitsubishi part, it is a 2 prong metal plug, maybe the size of my girly baby finger, screw threaded on the top front of the engine cover, which senses coolant temp. If coolant is cold (or if the sensor cant sense properly) then it says ooohh its very cold outside so I will tell the glow plugs to click click click on until I tell them to let the engine start. But ooops I CAN'T say its ok to start the engine because the coolant temp probe still says its is very cold (ie no reading on the temp sensor so we must be in siberia) so you glow plug guys better click click some more.

There is also a single prong plug, a couple inches away, which is not a problem, as it only sends the info to your dashboard guage.

If you do manage to get the engine started, by way of long cranking time and sometimes a bit of your foot pressure on the diesel fuel pedal (not floored, just sort of halfway pressure on the fuel pedal), then the engine will cough madly and the whole vehicle shakes and will splutter black smoke out the exhaust for about 45 seconds, and the click click will continue for about 2 minutes until it stops (because the engine is warming the coolant). But Then when you drive away, the click clicks happen again, as you now move cold coolant thru the systems.

This Temp Sensor is not a problem in summer usually, but come the autumn you notice a lot more people posting on the forum with the hard start and clicking problem.

To prove this easily, can you park inside a toasty garage, and put a heater under the radiator and engine area so that the whole thing is perhaps 65 degrees. Then if it starts easily you know your solution. I don't know what temp it really needs to deactivate it. I also keep meaning to test the sensor to find what the electrical load should be through it to test it, but havent, and I do not know anyone who has. We just buy another sensor, I think the ones in ours are all over 15 years old, they don't seem to be a problem once we replace them. I suppose another test could be to drain all your coolant and heat it on the stove then refill radiator but that would be an extreme situation. Can you borrow a working one from a buddy, easy to install in seconds, he'll never know if you do it while he's in the pub.

Cheers, Christine.
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[jessef]

That's a short novel !

If you google fast clicking won't start you'll get a dead battery. Just not enough juice to supply the glowplug controller and the starter.

Glad you got it sorted. Better to find and know the electrical problem then not knowing !

[TardisDeli]

Yes, very interesting that a discharged battery on the L400 causes odd symptoms, perhaps due to all the many and various relays etc that the L300 don't have. Christine.

[jessef]

Yes, very interesting that a discharged battery on the L400 causes odd symptoms, perhaps due to all the many and various relays etc that the L300 don't have. Christine.

I don't think it has anything to do with relays. The same symptoms I had on my L300. Identical and same with my Jeep (NA gas model).