Welcome to the "Last Word Café".

[glenn]

psilosin, we agree on so many issues, I accept that you are not xenophobic and that such overtones related to the disturbing image were not intended. We all know it can be challenging interacting on a forum where you don't actually know people, and so much has to be inferred and can be easily misinterpreted. Plus, I have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to cultural intolerance.

Back to meat. Yes, Joe, I recommend Redl's Home-Grown beef.
http://www.redlbeef.ca/

Barrie comes out to quite a few farmer's markets (listed on his website), where you can shake his hand and talk about cows. He's a really nice guy. He sells beef by the 1/4 - but it's actually a 1/2 of a 1/2 - so you get cuts from the whole side, not just the front or back. I think he charges about 3.99 per pound, which to me is well worth it - because it is delicious!

When it comes to industrial food production, my mantra is that we have to try to stop feeding the bear that's rampaging through town and destroying everything.

[Jordan]

Nothing wrong with eating meat but there is something wrong with buying non-organic meat.

It's a matter of opinion that could be deemed "speciesist". Under the same logic nothing is wrong with manslaughter as long as the victim lived in a good neighbourhood and had an enjoyable life...

[glenn]

Hi Jordan,
are you arguing against eating meat altogether, or are you supporting business as usual with factory meat production? I'm not really sure.

Humans certainly don't need meat to be healthy - but so many (the majority?) of humans like to eat it. So, as long as we are raising animals for consumption, I believe that we need to treat them humanely. I don't think there can be much controversy with that idea.

My daughter caught her first fish this summer. As she pulled it into the canoe, she was simultaneously thrilled, and sad for the life she had taken. She shed tears of joy, and sadness at the same time. It was a tough lesson for all of us - when you eat flesh, an animal must die. Its so easy to think of meat as something you buy, when someone else does the killing part. I think as a society we have become far to casual about this.

[Jordan]

Hi Jordan,
are you arguing against eating meat altogether, or are you supporting business as usual with factory meat production? I'm not really sure.

Humans certainly don't need meat to be healthy - but so many (the majority?) of humans like to eat it. So, as long as we are raising animals for consumption, I believe that we need to treat them humanely. I don't think there can be much controversy with that idea.

My daughter caught her first fish this summer. As she pulled it into the canoe, she was simultaneously thrilled, and sad for the life she had taken. She shed tears of joy, and sadness at the same time. It was a tough lesson for all of us - when you eat flesh, an animal must die. Its so easy to think of meat as something you buy, when someone else does the killing part. I think as a society we have become far to casual about this.

Hey Glenn, thanks for your response.
My argument is against the blind acceptance of the mass exploitation of living beings for the frivolous reason that "so many (the majority?) of humans like to eat it" when in reality “Humans certainly don't need meat to be healthy”

If anyone tries to argue the "merits" of factory farming I hope they get abducted, separated from their family and kept in a small cage for the rest of their lives.

Your daughter sounds smarter than 90% of humans I have met, I applaud you for raising a child with morals. I do not want to preach as I was a meat eater for 20 odd years raised on ignorance, there was always a voice in the back of my mind that felt it was wrong but I didn't have any vegetarian influences to prove otherwise. The deal breaker for me was when I got a dog, I spend 24 hours a day with my dog and seeing him going through emotions really resonated with me that every living thing deserves an equal chance; how can I be disgusted that people eat dog in foreign countries yet I can eat beef, pork, chicken, fish and these animals all have the same emotions as my dog and myself.

While I agree animals that are raised for consumption should be treated humanely, I think the fact there IS animals being raised for consumption is a major disconnect with nature and makes humans believe they are superior.

[jessef]

I'm not entirely sure where this is all going. Anyone care to translate these abstract / obscure postings?

I like the Tolerance picture, kittens feeding off a nursing canine.

Falco.

Moderators feeding the troll. tsk tsk

Nomad Cows. Totally free range and as organic as can be under the current world status. Best to hunt your own food, then you understand your quarry a little more and you directly take responsibility for your own actions. I also think one tends to understand life better.

Racism? Bah... We all bleed the same colour and if you look back in every race's history ~ we all guilty as sin. Tea anyone?

Falco.

Falco, I had no idea you hunted. Gun or bow ?

[nxski]

I'm not entirely sure where this is all going. Anyone care to translate these abstract / obscure postings?

I like the Tolerance picture, kittens feeding off a nursing canine.

Falco.

Moderators feeding the troll. tsk tsk

I'd call it more of an indirect / non-confrontational way of saying that these comments serve no real purpose other than to antagonize (for the most part that is)

Followed by a comment stating that tolerance is good.

Seems as though the 'trolling' has now turned into an informative conversation about meat, so no harm done. Shall we continue with this refreshing conversation about where and what to buy when it comes to the production of our food!?

[jessef]

Shall we continue with this refreshing conversation about where and what to buy when it comes to the production of our food!?

I prefer to grow my own veggies but being in the city I cannot, so I resort to going to local farm markets and buying locally grow food. You can tell the difference by smell, taste, feel and look.

Or do like Falco and hunt !

Best to hunt your own food, then you understand your quarry a little more and you directly take responsibility for your own actions. I also think one tends to understand life better.

[FalcoColumbarius]

Jesse ~ So good to hear from you.

Did I at any time say that I hunted? I merely stated that the ideal way to procure one's meat would be by hunting.

Best to hunt your own food, then you understand your quarry a little more and you directly take responsibility for your own actions. I also think one tends to understand life better.

However, I have started the process of learning to hunt as I believe in those words I wrote, ask Jay ~ he knows I started doing this. I also believe that I should be good at hunting before I actually go out there and hunt. Last thing I want to do is wound an animal, causing him/her great pain and trauma and also have to track him/her for a few days. Besides, I have been taught that by putting an animal into trauma it causes the adrenalin to run through his muscles (fight/flight), making the meat tough and bitter.

I prefer to grow my own veggies but being in the city I cannot, so I resort to going to local farm markets and buying locally grow food. You can tell the difference by smell, taste, feel and look.

By the way ~ you can grow your own vegetables in Vancouver, you can keep chickens, too. If you don't personally have the property to grow on then there is the option of working in community gardens. There is also the option of creating a garden on your balcony.



Falco.

[FalcoColumbarius]

Earl grey for me Falco and I will bring the scones

Organic,free range and this one is brand new.





regards David

Fmande, how are you? You bring the scones and I'll toss in some clotted cream along with some Tuesday Cottage Marmalade. That should help the oil of Bergamot penetrate your system.

Regarding your two pictures: Is that your ranch/farm or just a place you know?

What have you been up to? How's your 1952 Wolseley Ute coming along? I wrote an article for Gearbox Magazine, have a look and tell me what you think. It's always good to hear from you.

Falco.

[Erebus]

Last thing I want to do is wound an animal, causing him great pain and trauma and also have to track him for a few days.

Why "him"? Are you planning on being sexist and leave the females to produce more targets? {that was an attempt at humour}

[fmande]

Fmande, how are you? You bring the scones and I'll toss in some clotted cream along with some Tuesday Cottage Marmalade. That should help the oil of Bergamot penetrate your system.

Regarding your two pictures: Is that your ranch/farm or just a place you know?

What have you been up to? How's your 1952 Wolseley Ute coming along? I wrote an article for Gearbox Magazine, have a look and tell me what you think. It's always good to hear from you.

Falco.

The farms mine and that picture was taken about 4 months ago at the end of Summer for us.
I run two farms and I have beef,sheep and goats.
What I really want to do is grow heritage variety of vegetables.
Unfortunately in my state of South Australia our governments focus is on large comercial producers and industries instead of smaller sustainable farmers.I am restricted in what I can grow.We will win though.




By the way.My wife and I are Vegetarians and have been for over 30 years.

As for the Wolseley I am preparing the site to put up some sheds up so I can pull it down.So far I have moved over 1000 tons of dirt.I still have further 1000 to finish.I am very exited.


I read your article.I like reading about your model of Deli.Those shocks and controller are the ones I am thinking of getting for my work ute.If they work out ok then I will put them in our next Deli.
We have a green L400 T/D.I am currently looking for another one.LWB 8 seater,rare but they are around.


I really should put a topic up and show off South Australia.It is such a contrast here.In 4 hours you can go from cool high country and sea views to dry and beautiful deserts.I am very fortunate that I can travel this great State with my business.

So if you want and are interested I will start a post.

regards David

[konadog]

Ooooo By all means start a post with lots of pictures! I love what I've seen of South Australia and am keen to see much more. Still looking forward to visiting you and your farm in person soon too :)

[jessef]

Jesse ~ So good to hear from you.

Did I at any time say that I hunted? I merely stated that the ideal way to procure one's meat would be by hunting.

Best to hunt your own food, then you understand your quarry a little more and you directly take responsibility for your own actions. I also think one tends to understand life better.

However, I have started the process of learning to hunt as I believe in those words I wrote, ask Jay ~ he knows I started doing this. I also believe that I should be good at hunting before I actually go out there and hunt. Last thing I want to do is wound an animal, causing him great pain and trauma and also have to track him for a few days. Besides, I have been taught that by putting an animal into trauma it causes the adrenalin to run through his muscles (fight/flight), making the meat tough and bitter.

It is hard to believe in something that you don't know. Started to hunt is not the same as learning to hunt and you can't learn to hunt without hunting. Kind of a catch-22.

No offense, but I don't see you as the type of person to either sink an arrow or fire a bullet into a living creature. Are you ?

Nobody can learn to hunt or truly have a connection with the environment/animals until they are actually doing the 'hunt'. Everything else, what people tell you, what you read, practice in your mind is just words. This comes from real experience. I have friends that hunt with rifles and compound bows. Not my thing. Hunting for sport in my mind is degrading for human society. I was hunting for necessity. Big big difference if you are learning. I used to hunt when I lived on the island and when I grew up summers in the interior/clinton area. Always with a bow. Hungarian horsebow and not one of those I-can-sit-with-my-eyes-closed-compound-bows. It is very true that the way you hunt and the way the animal is shot is very important but only if that is what you believe.

What are you practicing with ? guns, bows ?

On the topic of mainstream animal slaughter, it is also very degrading to our society and culture. There is no such thing as a 'good home cooked steak' these days unless you know where that cow came from. Not knowing turns into ignorance which is what a good chunk of today's society is. Very unaware or do not want to be aware of where most of the meat they consume comes from.

I'm a paradox turn-on veggie, turn-off veggie depending on what I feel like eating.

It does not take much time to figure out where the place you shop from gets their meat and where that butcher or slaughterhouse gets their meat.

It's a very american way of thinking for food. It takes good, looks good, just like it used to be when I was a kid so it must be healthy and clean. Most people believe that so hard that to them, it's the truth.

[FalcoColumbarius]

It is hard to believe in something that you don't know. Started to hunt is not the same as learning to hunt and you can't learn to hunt without hunting. Kind of a catch-22.

Jesse, I find this statement ironic coming from you. There are things that I have done, things I have not done and things that I am learning to do. I don't really see what this has to do with you. My original comment refers to knowing where your meat comes from, in which case if you hunt it yourself (which includes studying your quarry) then you know. This is simple logic. Yet you appear to be more interested in my personal life, rather than the topic of discussion. Why is that?
Heller's maxim "catch 22" is a reference to madness and sanity, what are you suggesting?

No offense, but I don't see you as the type of person to either sink an arrow or fire a bullet into a living creature. Are you ?

I'm not offended, how could I be so? I have met you, what ~ fifteen, twenty times? Collectively we have spent maybe two hours together? We have never been alone together... they say you can tell a lot about someone by how they shake hands with you... Have we ever shaken hands?

Nobody can learn to hunt or truly have a connection with the environment/animals until they are actually doing the 'hunt'. Everything else, what people tell you, what you read, practice in your mind is just words. This comes from real experience. I have friends that hunt with rifles and compound bows. Not my thing. Hunting for sport in my mind is degrading for human society. I was hunting for necessity. Big big difference if you are learning. I used to hunt when I lived on the island and when I grew up summers in the interior/clinton area. Always with a bow. Hungarian horsebow and not one of those I-can-sit-with-my-eyes-closed-compound-bows. It is very true that the way you hunt and the way the animal is shot is very important but only if that is what you believe.

Well... I would first like to comment that "hunting" and "pulling a trigger" or "loosing an arrow" are not necessarily the same thing. A classic example of this is "The Deer Hunter". Horse bow, eh? Close range assault weapon. Were you hunting from horse back? The problem with bow hunting (IMO) is that the chances of making a precision hit is compromised by a number of concerns, such as:

• Wind. Between your bow and your potential quarry is the possibility of many cross winds.
• Arrow surface. Typically an arrow is 28-32 inches long with three fletchings at the noch end. Although these fletchings are designed to direct the projectile, they are also susceptible to other forces, like cross winds.
• Heads. When hunting one must use a broad head tip for the arrow because you need to insure that you cause as much internal bleeding as possible to avoid the chase being longer than is necessary. The drawback to broad heads is you are affectively mounting fletchings on the front of the arrow, which completely alters it's flight characteristics and requires a whole different style of loosing, and also provides more surface for the wind to work against your shot.

The most practical thrust in a basic recurve bow will be 68-70lbs @ 28" draw. Compound bows were originally designed for older people who still had the initial strength to draw a bow but had trouble sustaining the draw. That is the purpose of a compound, ease of sustaining the draw. You still have to aim the bow, still have external forces to contend with.

A 7.62 round, on the other hand, travelling at 2,600 feet per second ~ although still susceptible to external forces ~ those forces are nowhere near as great as a fully armed shaft travelling at a much slower velocity. so in the case of hunting "as a necessity" and the ethical practice of taking another animals life... I would definitely go with a rifle, furnished with a scope. I would only consider hunting with bow if I was unable to acquisition a firearm and/or ammunition (and I was living in the toolies).

What are you practicing with ? guns, bows ?

That is really none of your concern.

On the topic of mainstream animal slaughter, it is also very degrading to our society and culture. There is no such thing as a 'good home cooked steak' these days unless you know where that cow came from. Not knowing turns into ignorance which is what a good chunk of today's society is. Very unaware or do not want to be aware of where most of the meat they consume comes from.

Thank you for restating my point ~ because if you don't know where the cow came from ~ it's just plain bull... grins.

Last thing I want to do is wound an animal, causing him great pain and trauma and also have to track him for a few days.

Why "him"? Are you planning on being sexist and leave the females to produce more targets? {that was an attempt at humour}

Quite right, I will amend my post for the sake of Posterior Correctness... ...

I really should put a topic up and show off South Australia.It is such a contrast here.In 4 hours you can go from cool high country and sea views to dry and beautiful deserts.I am very fortunate that I can travel this great State with my business.

So if you want and are interested I will start a post.

regards David

Ooooo By all means start a post with lots of pictures! I love what I've seen of South Australia and am keen to see much more. Still looking forward to visiting you and your farm in person soon too :)

I second that motion, with the amendment or replacing the word "post" with the word "thread"... smiles.

Falco.

[konadog]

I used to hunt though am now a veggie - used a 30-30 rifle with open sights. Couldn't shoot as far as others with bigger rifles with scopes but one must live within the limitations of one's tools. Same goes for bow hunters and drivers of L-300's... If I still ate animals I would still hunt and buy my meat from local producers. I still eat eggs and get them from local, free range and well cared for hens.