Welcome to the "Last Word Café".

[nxski]

I do know a thing or two about construction but this is the only thing I feel confident discussing (the rest is just educated guesswork so I won't venture there)...

As stated before, steel begins to lose integrity at 538°C. It begins to melt at 1510°C. Jet fuel burns under pressure between 260°C - 315°C. Just sayin'. 538°C - 315°C = 223°C short of compromising steel

As I stated before, the Jet fuel will have triggered a fire but will burn off quite quickly, what keeps the fire burning is the materials in the building. Carpet, chairs, possibly desks, etc all are made of plastic which burns very easily and is very hard to put out, not to mention all of the other combustibles in the building. Flashover definitely occurred considering the time this fire went on for (instant death for anyone nearby and a temperature of at least 500 degrees celsius). This is usually the point at which windows are blown out...you may even be able to see this in one of the video's. A temperature like that around unexposed steel is very close to the point at which you stated steel looses integrity. The other thing to keep in mind are the safety factors placed on the materials as well as the fact that no material simply looses strength at a specific temperature, it is a gradual decrease of strength.

[BCDelica]

All the technical speak aside, like for example the combustion of petroleum fuels is easily known and understand, plus there are examples of burning jets to see how they act - but there just isn't any other examples of planes burning in a confined space. At the next Delica meet bring a IR thermometer and some metal rods, and do some metal heat stress testing around the campfire.

I've always assumed/guessed that building 7 was pre rigged with explosives given the tenants.

[drrod]

There are certainly questions that have not been answered to a lot of peoples satisfaction. There will be discussion until the end of time regarding how the towers could, or could not, collapse from the airplane hits with "experts" chiming in from both views but.......the questions that no one seems to be able to answer (in my mind) or are unwilling to answer are:
1. how can there be so little wreckage at both the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites?
2. why do the crash sites at #1 not "line up" with virtually every other crash site in modern history?
3. how did WTC7 sustain such severe damage when other buildings within the same vicinity did not?
4. why has there been scant "public" disclosure regarding the stock manipulation and trading activity just before 9/11?
http://www.rense.com/general46/911.html
5. what is the connection (if any) between those who would profit (monetarily or politically) from the "war on terror" and those who may have had some responsibility for 9/11?

On the other hand, if a conspiracy did (or does) exist, it must involve a large number of people. How has a lid been kept on it in this day and age of instant and global communications and people willing to do anything for their 15 minutes of fame and fortune?

I have long ago given up on the belief that governments, and their bureaucracy, operate solely for the benefit of those they govern, especially when they are not held to close scrutiny. And, I am a firm believer that if you follow something far enough there is $$$ at the end of the trail.

One thing I am confident of is......if a society gives up on asking questions and holding its leaders accountable for their actions, it is not a good thing and eventually those leaders will take liberties that they should not. It is our responsibility, as citizens in a democratic society, to hold our leaders responsible. When we abdicate that responsibility, we will reap the consequences.

Of course the above is just the rantings of someone who has watched his net worth slowly evaporate due to the financiers of the world, who are still merrily going about doing what they have always done, with the blessings and help (via bailouts and lack of regulatory changes) of those whom you entrust with your tax dollars.

Rod

[drrod]

BTW - if you want a long (and sometimes boring) read on the interaction of the finances of the world, and its interaction with governments, you might want to read
"The Creature From Jekyll Island" by Edward Griffin. Read with an open mind, there are several things in the book that make you go hmmmmmmm.
Rod

ps - if you don't want to take the time to read it, there is some excerpts on the web. eg.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1691870450

[glenn]

Just a painter eh? . . . . I'm dubious. You don't think we all buy your alias do you?? - and the van, it's clean . . . too clean.

Seriously though, sure there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that something was fishy, but it was a very complex event and that's to be expected. drrod, your right - especially about being vigilant. I suspect that no matter where you dig in the world, you'll find the stink of corruption.

But, I don't see anything too remarkable about the way the building collapses. It fails right where you expect it to fail, at the point of the impact, and falls straight down, one floor after another. That's a tremendous of momentum from above, no core can withstand that much inertia. You see the burning gases expelled as the floors collapse on each other, but no explosion.

I just really have a hard time being convinced that the two towers were scuttled with thousands of people still inside. It just doesn't make sense to me. If it was to cover up some sensitive info, it would have happened like building 7 - after everyone was out. If it was planned from the beginning, why bother crashing planes full of people into the buildings first, why not just blow them up? Alternatively then, are there thousands of buildings wired with explosives around the country just waiting for possible terrorist attacks so they can be destroyed? This is what I mean by a working hypothesis - someone please present a plausible scenario as to why so many people would be sacrificed in the name of power/security/whatever.

The only conspiracy ever I see is old white guys who are grinding the planet into the ground while they hold onto whatever power the have at any cost. What scares me now is that instead of tackling the global environmental issues that imminently threaten everything - the US is arming the lifeboat. Look at how they are beefing up their borders.

And who gives these guys their power - we do of course. Think of that every time you go to wallmart, mcdonalds, fill your car up with fuel, etc, etc. Like David Byrne said back in the 80's "Everything is Finite"

[drrod]

Glenn,
I am clearly not qualified to comment on how/why the towers collapsed in the manner that they did. Legions of people, much smarter than me, cannot come to a consensus.
I am far more curious of the discrepancies of the other plane crash sites.
As for "....was planned from the beginning, why bother crashing planes full of people into the buildings first, why not just blow them up?....."
If your intent truly is to divert peoples' attention to a "common enemy", then it has to be cataclysmic. It takes the large loss of innocent human life to really get people's attention unfortunately.
The sinking of the Lusitania in WW1 has similar sinister undertones.
Woodrow Wilson was reelected on a platform of keeping the US neutral in WW1. When it became evident that the Allies were on the brink of losing the war, the only hope of winning was to get the US involved. If the Allies had lost the war, untold billions of dollars in loans, made to the Allies to finance the war, would have become worthless. Could the bankers, who made the loans, let that happen? Good question but I fear the answer.

So many questions. So few answers from "uninvested" sources.

I urge you to read the Jekyll book. Lots of things in there that make you question. Granted there are things in there that you could easily dismiss, but still a good read.

Rod

[jessef]

There will always be two sides to every story.

In the case of the twin towers, you'll have hundreds of sides, variations and everything in between with individual personal opinions coming out the loudest at the top.

Just a painter eh? . . . . I'm dubious.

One good thing about a skilled painter is that they will often have different points of view and perceptions on things that the average person does not. This makes for both interesting conversation and insightful idea sharing.

Lots of good comes out of painters, woodworkers and people that use their imagination to create things.

Me? I'm just a painter.

Okay, to begin with let me remind everybody that I'm a painter.

I am really a painter

Myself, I am a painter and an armchair mechanic.

Falco.... Painter

I work as a painter from time to time

I'm a painter, what do I know... smiles.

As a painter looking at this situation

One thing I ought to remind you, DPD, I am a painter

[solanoid]

Good read....

Susan Lindauer, former U.S. Asset and 9/11 Whistleblower
Susan Lindauer | Veterans Today

As a U.S. Intelligence Asset, Susan Lindauer covered anti-terrorism at the Iraqi Embassy in New York from 1996 up to the invasion. Independent sources have confirmed that she gave advance warning about the 9/11 attack. She also started talks for the Lockerbie Trial with Libyan diplomats. Shortly after requesting to testify before Congress about successful elements of Pre-War Intelligence, Lindauer became one of the first non-Arab Americans arrested on the Patriot Act as an "Iraqi Agent". She was accused of warning her second cousin, White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card and Secretary of State Colin Powell that War with Iraq would have catastrophic consequences. Gratis of the Patriot Act, her indictment was loaded with "secret charges" and "secret evidence." She was subjected to one year in prison on Carswell Air Force Base in Fort Worth, Texas without a trial or hearing, and threatened with indefinite detention and forcible drugging to shut her up. After five years of indictment without a conviction or guilty plea, the Justice Department dismissed all charges five days before President Obama’s inauguration.
Lindauer has written a book Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq about her experience.
9/11: Inside Story on the Missing Tapes

The Missing Security Tapes from the World Trade Center
[This article may be republished in whole or part with attribution to the author.] by Susan Lindauer, former U.S. Asset and 9/11 Whistleblower

Late on the night of August 23, 2001, at about 3 a.m. security cameras in the parking garage of the World Trade Center captured the arrival of two or three truck vans.
Visual examination determined the vans were separate and unique from trucks used by janitorial services, including different colors and devoid of markings. More curious, all the janitorial trucks had pulled out of the Towers by about 2:30 a.m—about half an hour before the second set of vans arrived.
According to my high level State Department source with a top security clearance, who disclosed the unusual nightly activity, no vans matching that description had entered the World Trade Center at such an hour in any of the weeks or months prior to that date. It was a unique event.
Security cameras caught the vans leaving the Towers at approximately 5 a.m—before the first wave of AAA personality types on Wall Street, driving Mercedes and BMWs, arrived to track the markets.
For the next 10 to 12 nights, the same mysterious truck vans arrived at the World Trade Center at the same mysterious hour— after the janitorial crews had left the building and before the most fanatic robber barons on Wall Street showed up for work. The vans appeared at the World Trade Center from approximately August 23, 2001 until September 3 or 4, 2001. After that last night, they never appeared at the Towers again.
The vans were never heard of again, either. The 9/11 Commission was never informed of their surprising presence in the Towers three weeks before the 9/11 attack. Most of the 9/11 Truth Community has no knowledge of this extraordinary nightly activity, either.
For all the public’s ignorance, video from the security cameras could be the most significant missing part of the 9/11 puzzle. This State Department source was convinced the mysterious trucks were used to transport explosives into the building, and that an unidentified orphan team wired the World Trade Center for a controlled demolition in those late night hours. He has stayed quiet to protect his job, his retirement pension and his reputation—knowing that others who spoke up have gotten fired or thrown in prison (myself included).
Controlled Demolition
Other evidence supports a controlled demolition of the Towers, as a supplement to the hijackings. Firefighters and maintenance crews reported hearing explosions popping through the Towers on 9/11. And previous reports indicate that dust from the World Trade Center tested positive for “thermate explosives–” a derivative of a thermite bomb.
A thermite reaction involves a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum, while thermate adds an element of sulfur. When the iron oxide-aluminum mixture is ignited, a super vigorous reaction occurs, creating molten metal—and dust, in the case of thermate. The reaction is extremely exothermic, meaning that a great deal of heat is given off, making for an incredibly powerful reducing agent.
Even so, as the 10 year anniversary of the 9/11 attack approaches, the majority of Americans continue to be confused as to how a controlled demolition scenario fits with the airplane hijackings and aerial strike on the World Trade Center—which the whole world witnessed on play back over and over in the media, until the image was seared like a brand on our collective consciousness.
Until now, there has been a false dichotomy that only one or the other style of attack could have occurred, but never both together. Some parts of the 9/11 Community itself vigorously dispute that both could have occurred as synchronized events. And most of the corporate media refuses to acknowledge the controlled demolition theory whatsoever.
When the public understands 9/11 as a series of Real Time events throughout the month of August, 2001, the unfolding sequence of this tragedy makes a lot more sense.
The difficulty is throwing out everything the public has been taught about 9/11—created for the convenience of politicians and corporate media, who simplified the story for public consumption.
First and foremost, contrary to all media reports and official claims, U.S. and foreign intelligence absolutely expected the 9/11 attack to occur— citing airplane hijackings and a strike on the World Trade Center. Even the time frame was identified precisely—known to be late August through mid-September.
I relate here my own experience as evidence. It has been corroborated in courtroom testimony by Parke Godfrey, a computer science professor at York University in Toronto. He delivered his statement under oath in the Federal Courthouse of the Southern District of New York—1000 yards from where the World Trade Center once graced the skyline.
On August 2, the date of Robert Mueller’s Senate confirmation hearings to become Director of the FBI, my CIA handler, Dr. Richard Fuisz warned me not to travel to New York because the attack on the World Trade Center involving airplane hijackings was “considered imminent,” with the potential for “mass human casualties” and a “possible miniature thermo-nuclear device” (thermite).
Our team aggressively tried to block the conspiracy. But not everyone was on board.
Threats to Iraq
As far back as April and May of 2001, a decision had been made at the top levels of the government that War with Iraq would be in play in the aftermath of a 9/11 scenario.
As the primary Asset covering the Iraqi Embassy in New York, I myself was ordered to threaten Iraqi diplomats with War, if it was determined that Iraq possessed actionable intelligence about the airplane hijacking conspiracy and failed to hand it over through my back channel.
After initially balking at the message, I was informed the threat originated at the highest level of government, above the CIA Director and Secretary of State. That could only be President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
Iraqi diplomats threw up their hands: They had nothing to give us, they said. But go ahead, they told me. “Send your FBI. They are welcome in Baghdad. We want peace with America. And maybe they will find something.” For all the brouhaha after 9/11, the fact remains that George Bush took no action on Iraq’s invite.
There was chatter about the 9/11 conspiracy throughout the Intelligence Community all summer long. The greatest part of the Intelligence Community abhorred the scenario. My own Intelligence team, triangulating the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency pushed and pushed for actionable intelligence from Baghdad. However, though we could not understand what the hell was going on, our efforts kept running into a wall of interference from the Justice Department, with only superficial outward support.
For the integrity of history, Americans and the world community have a fundamental right to understand what actions the Intelligence Community did undertake prior to the attack—because it exposes the high level opposition running interference.
August Timeline
On Thursday, August 2, 2001— my CIA handler, Dr. Richard Fuisz and I discussed over the telephone our belief that the attack would be imminent.
On Saturday, August 4– I visited the Iraqi Embassy in New York for the final time before 9/11, pushing for any fragment of actionable intelligence from Baghdad that could pinpoint the conspiracy.
On the weekend of August 4-5—spooky NSA types “visited” the office where I had a part time consulting job. Of course the office was closed for the weekend, and I won’t speculate how they got inside. However, while snooping, they took a “proof of life,” for want of a better expression. It is a physical copy of the Wall Street Journal dated July 30, 2001—the same week as my conversation with Dr. Fuisz— addressed to the company, with the street address and name of the man I had been working for.
The copy of the July 30, 2001 Wall Street Journal surfaced on my desk at home—Nine Years after the attack— while I was traveling in Japan on a speaking tour for the advance release of my book, “Extreme Prejudice: The Terrifying Story of the Patriot Act and the Cover Ups of 9/11 and Iraq,” which features a detailed analysis of our team’s 9/11 warnings, the 9/11 investigation and a comprehensive peace framework developed with Iraqi diplomats. Given the upheaval in my life throughout the intervening decade—including a year’s stint in prison on a Texas military base, while the government covered up my team’s 9/11 warnings and the true facts of Iraqi Pre-War Intelligence— there’s no way a copy of the Wall Street Journal could have survived as desk clutter.
Other Intelligence officers will recognize the significance at once. That hard copy of the Wall Street Journal proves beyond any question that other spooks were tracking our team’s conversations about the conspiracy in “real time” fully 6 weeks before 9/11 occurred. A newspaper would have been thrown out of an office weeks before the attack. Somebody had to grab it up almost immediately after my conversation with Dr. Fuisz.
See? Other teams tried to put together the attack scenario, too.
All of it points to the frenetic activity in advance of 9/11. There was a lot of action behind the scenes. And Intelligence folk are anything but passive individuals. Quite the opposite, there’s a lot of creative risk-taking and proactive problem solving. None of these people sit on their hands.
Americans still don’t know that:
On Monday, August 6, I met with Dr. Fuisz and we hammered out a plan of action for alerting the White House that this hijacking conspiracy should move to “emergency status.”
That same Monday, August 6, the CIA handed President Bush a memo warning about an expected terrorist conspiracy involving Al Qaeda. Though I could be mistaken, I have always believed Dr. Fuisz contributed to that report. If not, it proves again that a broad spectrum of U.S. intelligence was moving to high alert status, far enough in advance to block the attack.
Following instructions from Dr. Fuisz, on Tuesday, August 7 or Wednesday, August 8, I placed an emergency call to the private staff of Attorney General John Ashcroft. Identifying myself as the Chief U.S. Intelligence Asset covering Iraq and Libya at the United Nations, I delivered our warning about a conspiracy involving airplane hijackings and a targeted strike on the World Trade Center.
I requested an emergency broadcast alert through all Federal Agencies seeking any fragment of intelligence involving airplane hijackings and a strike on the World Trade Center. I warned the attack was “imminent” with expectations of “mass casualties,” and that it should be regarded as Emergency Status.
Attorney General John Ashcroft’s private staff immediately gave me a telephone number at the Office of Counter-Terrorism, and told me to repeat what I had just told them to the person at that number. Immediately I complied.
Later that week on August 9 or 10, I drove over to the Arlington, Virginia home of my second cousin, Andrew Card— Chief of Staff to President George Bush— ready to deliver the same message. I waited two hours in my car outside of his home. Occasionally neighbors peeked outside their curtains, while I chain smoked cigarettes in the hot car. (Yes, I have quit smoking.) Driving away, I remember thinking that I might be making the greatest mistake of my life.
My Own Private Hell during the Cover Up
I am extremely proud of our team efforts before 9/11 and throughout the 9/11 investigation. For all that, Americans are learning about this very late because I got into great big, bad trouble with the Feds when I tried to talk. I suffered five (5) years of indictment on the Patriot Act and one year of prison on a military base without a trial, when Republicans decided to reinvent the facts about 9/11 and Iraqi Pre-War Intelligence, denying Iraq’s contributions to the 9/11 investigation and the existence of a comprehensive peace framework.
Our relationship soured as I became convinced Republicans at the top echelons allowed 9/11 to happen, killing thousands of innocent Americans and international citizens, so they could build a phony case for War against Iraq and Afghanistan.
I was outraged that the American government has done this to itself—as a pretext for military aggression and massive deficit spending in support of the military industrial complex, which is bankrupting the Middle Class. And I was quite vocal in expressing my belief that Americans have a right to full disclosure about our activities before 9/11 and the Iraqi War. And the devil take politicians!
Without question I posed a grave threat to political grandstanding on 9/11 and the myth of Washington’s “outstanding leadership performance on terrorism.” Many times I have thought of myself as Dorothy in the Land of Oz pulling back the curtain on the Wizard, and exposing his deceit before the hapless, trusting Munchkins.
In truth, the spooks did a great job before 9/11. Everything moved with lightning speed ahead of the threat. We could have stopped 9/11 easily if the Justice Department had fulfilled requests for inter-agency cooperation. There was plenty of time to alert NORAD or post an anti-air craft battery on top of the World Trade Center buildings.
That’s why the GOP leadership had to take me out—because I refused to back off that point. If I had been free, the American people and the world community would have learned the truth much sooner.
Controlled Demolition
Unhappily for all of us, because of private conversations with sources like my State Department colleague, I have reached additional conclusions that our team was not the only one at work before 9/11.
Though none of us expected this to happen, I have come to believe that our efforts collided with a force of equal resistance, in the form of an orphan team also watching the events unfolding like us.
As a long-time participant in multiple terrorism investigations, I have personal knowledge that most terrorist attacks are noisy, smoky and chaotic— without achieving maximum destruction of the target. The 1993 World Trade Center attack by Ramzi Youseff and Sheikh Abdul Rahmon of Egypt killed 5 people. The bombing of the U.S.S. Cole in the Port of Aden, Yemen killed 12 people. Without extra push, this 9/11 attack would never have killed so many people either—100 people at the very most.
Add to that a recipe of incompetent pilots— who functioned as Intelligence Assets themselves in a few cases— Again from personal experience, I know that Assets are heavily scrutinized at all times by handlers from multiple agencies. I am convinced that an inner circle anticipated the event, and saw that their boys flying those planes could not achieve maximum damage sufficient to achieve their War agenda in Iraq.
I cannot blame Americans for feeling overwhelmed, even heart-broken by these revelations. But bottom line jet fuel fires could not have collapsed both of those Towers, or Building 7, pretty much evaporating the entire steel frame of the buildings into dust and molten steel. Add to that the CIA’s urgent reports that a miniature thermo-nuclear device would be used in the attack—and that’s why I had to stay out of New York City.
The strange nightly activity at the World Trade Center three weeks before the attack clinched it for me. I am 100 percent convinced those Towers were wired for explosives.
Yes, hijacked airplanes struck the towers. But bringing down the Towers to secure War with Iraq required some extra umph.
I cannot speculate who wired the towers with explosives. I could make a guess, but my training as an Asset requires me to stay focused on what I have observed first-hand, and to recognize my own limitations.
So why should the world care? At this point, it is most critical for Americans to stop politicians in Washington from using 9/11 for grandstanding and personal ambitions. The War on Terrorism has perpetrated a fraud on all of us. Those who support the War on Terror are destroying our fiscal economy and our Middle Class.
That’s why Americans must learn the truth about 9/11. It’s reached a crisis point where we must get off this merry-go-round of defense spending. We must end the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Otherwise this fraud of 9/11 is going to ruin our great country for all time.
I only hope it isn’t too late already.
#####
__________________

[FalcoColumbarius]

Okay, you caught me red handed.

[nxski]

Okay, you caught me red handed.

Did you paint your hand?

Mine are black now from hippo liner...the stuff just won't come off!

[FalcoColumbarius]

- someone please present a plausible scenario as to why so many people would be sacrificed in the name of power/security/whatever.

RMS Lusitania

[psilosin]

Hi Mardy,

Good to see you always find time to post on the forum everytime Steven makes a post. Interestingly still no response to my parts request email though....if only you had the time right. I resent it again on Thursday like you asked...which was 4 days ago...almost 4 weeks since the first time it was sent. You can tell me again how you did respond...or you could, you know, actually respond not just pretend.

Are you this slow with all your customers or is it because you have a couple outstanding promises with me? Maybe you do not want to carry them out? That's your choice but a response either way would have been the right thing to do so I could stop waiting around and move on.

Should I have Steven send my parts request to you?...you seem very quick to respond whenever he makes a post.

Don't even bother now. At this point I would rather pay someone for the parts than continue this wild goose chase with you. No soup for you.

[deli1733]

It shouldnt cost you more then 4 hours labour and a 20 dollar seal.

[thedjjack]

I like this thread

Can the moderators add the popcorn smilely please!!!!!!!!

[jessef]

David

Just read between the mud and you'll get a clear answer. At this point, I doubt the excuse 'language barrier' can be used anymore with these dealers.

Don't worry about the scare tactic of having to rebuild your whole injection pump and the associated costs with it.

The dealers ignore one large factor :

After 1994 Viton seals are used for the exception of the main shaft seal.

4hrs labour + $17 main shaft seal

There's your 'truth' statement in the middle of all this crap.