Cold weather oil

[colnago]

I've read that 10W40 is what guys are running in their L300s. I'm having a hard time finding it though. Is there anything thing else out there that can be recommended to keep my Delica happier in the upcoming cold months? I've put in a block heater and am comtemplating the dual battery setup with a larger alternator, but I want to start with the basics before I spend a pile of cash. Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

[konadog]

Synthetic 5-40 or even 0-40 is good for the cold - once it warms up watch for oil leaks though, as the stuff is super thin and in warmer weather can seep through tiny cracks in seals and out of your motor.

[CREGAN]

5w40 Rotella T6, the blue jug/fully synthetic - like 30 bucks a jug (on sale, usually 35 I think) at Crappy Tire. Works for me. I got the advice from here on the forum and have been pleased and I live near Deadmonton. We wear board shorts when it is minus 25, just like summer!

Craig

[jessef]

searched for cold weather oil. here you go:

http://www.delica.ca/forum/10-driving-w ... -4364.html

http://www.delica.ca/forum/winter-oil-10172.html

http://www.delica.ca/forum/cold-weather ... -9564.html

http://www.delica.ca/forum/ready-for-winter-6430.html

[.:FoRuM56:.]

Within the next week I'll be changing to Rotella 0-40. It gets pretty cold in Alberta lol..

[Johnny2Bad]

Synthetic will not cause leaks when warmed up. If you have any leaks, they were there before, and you should have noticed them with conventional oil already.

Some basic oil information:

All Motor Oil will have a certain viscosity designation ... we're all familiar with, eg: 30 or 10W-30. The one or two numbers represent what new, unused oil viscosity characteristics it will have. For simplicity, we will ignore low grade oil, but be forewarned ... it is possible to buy oil that has no additives (eg: API-SA) or is not winter rated but is multigrade. (eg 20-30, not 20W-30). Do not use these oils, period.

There should always be a "donut" label from the American Petroleum Institute on the oil you buy. Read your owner's manual (or, for JDM engines, refer to a similar engine family and year of manufacture) for the minimum grade to look for. It is very important that people realize that you can buy oil today on the shelves that does not meet your engine's minimum requirements.

You should be looking for:
S~ classifications are for gasoline engines; C~ classifications apply to Diesel engines. (If you are wondering why not G and D, they are based on ignition. Gasoline = S = "Spark Ignition; Diesel = C = "Compression Ignition". With any luck, knowing that will help you remember if you have a brain fart at the store).

Other classifications (Europe, Japan) certified by other bodies may be listed; typically International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC).

Gasoline Engines:

SN: Recommended for 2011 and newer gasoline engines.

SM: Recommended for 2010 and earlier gasoline engines.

*** IMPORTANT: Special Note about SN, SM and "Energy Saving" API rated oils ****

*** IMPORTANT: Using the wrong oil can harm your Diesel Engine ****

If you own an older gasoline car with a flat tappet camshaft (newer cars generally have roller tappet cams) or have done high performance valve train modifications with high lift cams and/or high valve spring pressures, or you have a Diesel engine, DO NOT USE any oil rated ONLY for gasoline engines and classified as either meeting SN or SM. In some cases SL rated oil is also detrimental to your engine.

To meet EPA and Transport Canada requirements beginning with the 2005 model year that mandated all catalytic converters must be warranted for at least 120,000 miles /180,000 km, the level of zinc phosphate was drastically reduced in these oils. (Also known as Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate or simply "ZDDP"). ZP is a high pressure lubricant found as part of the additive package in motor oil that does not wash off engine parts, including cam lobes when the engine is shut down.

It is also important for Diesel engines that experience extreme pressure on engine main bearings due to the inherent design of compression ignition engines. On cold start, serious metal-on-metal wear occurs. When used in engine oil on gasoline engines, it tends to reduce the life of catalytic converters and O2 sensors slightly ... not a lot, but enough to prevent meeting the EPA/Transport Canada minimum requirement introduced in 2004.

If the SL oil formula is also low level ZP, it will have the "Energy Conserving" label in the API donut. DO NOT USE ANY "ENERGY CONSERVING" RATED OIL IN THESE ENGINES. Permanent damage requiring engine overhaul has been found in as little as 500 miles of driving.

Engine Oils that are classified as "Heavy Duty" (may appear anywhere on the label) for gasoline engines or are also rated for Diesel engines with classification CI-4 or CI-4+ may be used, as Diesel engines will also fail without sufficient amounts of this oil additive.

By the way, this marks the first time in over 100 years that an API service rating does not apply universally as safe for all previously made engines and the first time using a newer oil formula can cause catastrophic engine failure. Since the EPA has made no secret of it's desire to rid the world of pre-1996 automobiles, it does make you wonder if they cackled with glee knowing that they were creating a regulation that would send these vehicles to the crusher without the owner even realizing how it happened to a perfectly decent running motor.

**** End of Special Note ****

SL: Recommended for 2004 and older model gasoline engines. See 'Special Note' above regarding "Energy Saving" classification in the API donut label above.

SJ: 2001 and earlier gasoline engines.
SH: Obsolete; not recommended alone, but is current for these gasoline engines if also rated for Diesel (C- ...) on the API donut label.

Sometimes you will find multiple designations (eg: SH-SJ). The older is just there to get people who actually read the owner's manual and do exactly what it says, to buy it; the newer one is the actual classification.

All other S~ ... classifications are considered obsolete for gasoline engines; even very old cars and trucks (SA; SB, SC, SD, SE, SF, SG). May be found for sale on store shelves or bulk oil; there is no prohibition on selling this oil. Avoid.

ILSAC ratings:
These are somewhat simpler than API ratings. A new category supersedes the previous, so for example SF-5 replaces SF-4 as soon as the newer standard is introduced. I have no accurate information on how these ratings affect older cars, except that if the oil is marked "Resource Conserving" in the API label it means it also meets SF-5.

SF-5: Current. Introduced 2011.
SF-4: Obsolete. Use SF-5
SF-3: Obsolete. Use SF-5
SF-2: Obsolete. Use SF-5
SF-2: Obsolete. Use SF-5
SF-1: Obsolete. Use SF-5

---------------------

Diesel Engines:

If an oil is Diesel rated as well as Gasoline rated, the Diesel performance requirements supersede the Gasoline performance requirements. Therefore a dual-rated oil will be suitable for cars that should not use the low zinc phosphate gasoline-only rated oils referred to above in the 'Special Note".

CJ-4 Recommended for 2010 and newer Diesel engines.

CI-4 /CI-4+ Introduced for 2004 model year Diesel engines.

CH-4 Introduced for 1998 model year Diesel engines.

CG-4: Obsolete. Use CH-4, CH-4+, CJ-4 rated oils.

CD, CD-II, CE, CF, CF-2, CF-4 ... obsolete. Use CH-4, CH-4+, CJ-4 rated oils.

CA, CB, CC ... Obsolete. WARNING: Do not use.

Examples of obsolete oil found for sale on store shelves:

POQI: Obsolete Grades and Warnings: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Labels.htm

[jessef]

Synthetic will not cause leaks when warmed up. If you have any leaks, they were there before, and you should have noticed them with conventional oil already.

Switching to synthetic on a diesel that has been running conventional oil it's entire life can lead to leaks. There are many variables. A 'will not' or 'never' does not apply.

[Johnny2Bad]

Cold Weather Oil:

By far the most important concept you need to understand motor oil viscosity grades is that oil is poured through a specific sized fixture at 100 degrees Celsius (100C), and the flow through that hole is measured, then a grade assigned. Lower numbers flow more volume than higher numbers; i.e. they flow easier at every temperature. This testing is done by the Society of Automobile Engineers (SAE) and appears on the American Petroleum Institute (API) donut label on the oil container.

All other grading is based on the properties of those grades; i.e. it's all based on how oil behaves at engine operating temperature.

Viscosity is based on two measures. It is not necessary to dig too deeply in the procedure, although it might be worth noting that the viscosity we normally think of is called kinematic viscosity and is measured in Centistokes (cSt or mm2/s) and refers to how it acts under gravity ... such as when you pour it, and the value is affected by both temperature and pressure. The SAE standard for viscosity grading is very old ... published in 1911.

The SAE grades we're familiar with ... 10, 20, etc ... are measured at 100 Celsius (100C) which in 1911 they decided was equal to 210 Fahrenheit (actually 100C = 212F).

When it comes to cold weather performance, different oil stocks of the same grade behaved differently when cold. An SAE 20 oil from one area did not pour at cold temperatures the same as another SAE 20 oil from a well somewhere else on the planet.

In the US, light crude stock from Pennsylvania poured easier at low temperatures than heavier stock from the Gulf region near Texas. This led to the reputation of such motor oils as Pennzoil and Quaker State as "better" oils, since they obtained their crude stock from Pennsylvania wells.

In 1952 the "W" designation was implemented with testing at 0C (32F) to differentiate cold weather performance of different oils. Note that this was just the base stock alone ... no additives designed to alter cold weather viscosity were used at the time. So an SAE grade 30 oil might be also graded 20W-30 under the new system.

Also note that the W grade was based on it's performance at 100C ... the operating temperature of your engine ... so a complete translation of a Pennsylvania stock oil graded 20W-30 meant that at 0C it acted like an oil given the grade of SAE 20 at 100C, while at 100C it acted like an oil given the grade of SAE 30 at 100C.

There is no more Pennsylvania crude being pumped at any great quantity today, so the reputations of Pennzoil and Quaker State are really historical brand loyalty. But, it does illustrate that the base stock of oil is important for overall performance, and this does affect how well it works in your engine.

During the 1950's and 1960's oil companies researched and developed Viscosity Improvers ... additives ... that helped a given base stock perform better at low or high temperatures. These additives worked by reducing the tendency of the oil to thin as it became hotter. This is important, because it affects how suitable a given oil is for cold weather use.

Let's say you were a petroleum engineer developing a cold weather suitable oil. Because your additives effectively increase the viscosity at normal engine operating temperatures, you would start with a thin oil and include an additive package that makes it act thick when it got hotter.

You could, for example, start with SAE 30 Pennsylvania crude, which you found acted like SAE 20 at 0C, and then add an additive package that made it act like SAE 40 in your motor when at operating temperature. You would have an oil graded SAE 20W-40, which was made from SAE 30 base oil.

As the oil wears out ... picks up wear particles in your engine, for example ... the additive package is the first thing to be depleted. So, after a while, your 20W-40 oil reverts to performing like 20W-30 oil, and most importantly, like SAE 30 at normal engine temperatures. In essence, you are running straight 30 in your motor, since you've used the light crude's inherent ability for your low viscosity performance.

What if you don't have that oil stock to work with? For a 10W-30 oil, you might start with 10W Texas stock, throw more additives into the oil, which means a higher cost, and get an SAE 10W-30 rating when new. As the oil additives break down, your oil begins to act like 10W-20 and finally like SAE 10 at engine operating temperatures.

For those who've heard that Synthetic oil is "so thin" that it leaks more, I want you to consider what SAE 10 conventional crude based oil would do at 2,000 RPM and 40 PSI as far as seeping past your gaskets goes. Synthetic oil is much less resistant to viscosity disruption than conventional oil ... at 5,000 miles the same 10W-30 rated Synthetic will still be near it's SAE 30 rating in your engine at operating speeds, and could not be worse than SAE 10 in your driveway.

I am going to suggest that if true synthetic results in oil leaks, those oil leaks were there all along, and if they weren't as obvious, then it's likely because the conventional oil was blowing past the breather, or getting past the rings, and falling lower in the sump, due to it's low viscosity and resulting lower pressure film causing it to heat to the vapour point more easily and more often ... perhaps to the point where it didn't leak as much as a full sump with adequate oil volume should.

There are five categories of lubrication oils you can buy. Categories I, II and III are made from conventional crude stock. Categories IV and V are made from synthetic stock. Category V is not well suited for motor oil, so any true synthetic oil you buy will be category IV, which are Polyalphaolefin (PAO) based.

Category III oils are made from conventional Category II oils, but undergo a process similar to how Category IV synthetics are made. They have been available since 2005. In the US and Canada they are eligible to be labeled Synthetic, while in Germany or Japan they are prohibited from doing so (the Germans invented synthetic oil ... during WWII synthetic lubricating oils were used for their superior cold weather performance and tank engines, which were gasoline-type, ran on synthetics since they had no secure oil supply. Smaller vehicles and ships were Diesel, which they had plenty of ... sounds backwards, but that's how it was).

Synthetic oil differs from conventional oil in that they have an inherently high Viscosity Index ... just as a simple, base stock conventional oil, as per our Pennsylvania crude example earlier, may perform as a 20W when cold and a 30W when hot, a true PAO synthetic does the same only over a wider range of possible viscosities. This is an inherent property of the product, not something engineered in with additives as with conventional oils.

They may have few or no viscosity improver additives, since they are not necessarily needed. This allows them to maintain their hot engine performance over a much longer period, and in some cases they maintain the original viscosity at either temperature extremes at the point where they are saturated with wear particles and must be replaced.

Currently only Mobil1 and Amsol are PAO based oils available to the consumer. Other oils labeled synthetic in North America are Category III oils made from petroleum.

If you want the best cold-weather start performance, for gasoline engines either choose a PAO based synthetic rated at 0W~xx or a Category III oil rated at 0W-xx. At one time you could get semi-synthetic (a blend containing no more than 30% synthetic mixed with conventional oil) in 0W-xx but I haven't seen this on the market since Category III oil became available in 2005. If you use PAO synthetic, you can go 0W-40; if you choose a Category III "Synthetic" I personally would limit the viscosity range a bit, say 0W-30, since the less you demand of the viscosity improvers the more stable they are likely to be.

For Diesel engines you might consider a PAO based oil with a low xW-xx rating but take care to insure you choose an oil with a sufficiently high hot temperature SAE grade for high pressure bearing protection, preferably no lower than the oil recommended by your engine manufacturer.

If you choose to use conventional oil, be wary of viscosity improver breakdown over time. For Canadian winters I personally would suggest a 5W-30 for gasoline use and no lower than 20W-xx for diesel engines, provided you take care to change the oil as soon as practical once warm weather returns. 20-wieght oil is not adequate for a gasoline engine at operating temperatures (there really is no 10-weight base oil ... it will probably degrade to around 20-weight hot and cold). Similarly, 20 or 30-weight oil is not adequate for a Diesel engine. Do not wait so long to change your conventional oil that it degrades to the base stock at operating temperature; it does not have the high pressure lubrication properties your main bearings need.

By far the worst thing you can do with a low Winter rated oil is to allow it to wear by ignoring oil change intervals.

Note as well that for vehicles sold in Canada that all auto manufacturers consider operating an engine here under normal conditions to be severe service category in comparison to other markets. Your owner's manual will probably have what amounts to a third category of operation by world standards that is listed in your Canadian manual as severe service. If you take a moment to consider that, you should realize that frequent oil changes and filter replacement are best practices for our engines. Aim to be on the early side of your manufacturer's recommended service intervals for oil and filter.

[Johnny2Bad]

I have heard many people claim that switching to synthetic will increase oil leaks. I have never seen it.

When I first tried semi-synthetic 0W-30 Esso ArticLube in 1984 (you could only get it at the commercial bulk station), I put it in a 1967 Impala that had 175,000 miles on it. It did not leak any more, or any less, oil than it did with petroleum based oil, nor did it require topping up as much. This was not a tight engine, but when I sold it to the wreckers five years later, with over 240,000 miles on the clock, the engine and transmission purred like a kitten. The car itself had worn out ... window cranks broken, suspension sagging, body rusty.

Later Esso stopped making ArticLube and I found a replacement in PetroCanada something-or-other 0W-30 semi-synthetic, also only sold at the card-lock bulk station. This would be late 1980's and early 1990's. I ran that in a 1974 3/4 ton chevy and a 1984 Ranger 1/4 ton. Both were well used when I bought them, and again engine and transmission were excellent the day I sold each of them. The Chevy in particular was very oil tight, and the guy I sold it to ran it for another decade. No idea what happened to the Ranger.

When PetroCanada quit that oil, I switched to Mobil1 0W-40 about 15 years ago, which I ran year round. At the time you could only buy it in Canada.

I have never used another oil since.

I ran that in two trucks ... a 1980 Chevy bought with 177,000 km that I ran for 6 years, then sold the motor and tranny to a street stock racer ... the engine is apparently still racing, having been claimed a couple of times ... and one 78 GMC that I bought with 140,000 km and ran for 8 years ... it's still in my driveway, runs like a top with 283,000 km on it, but the tranny gave out finally. That particular truck has never been plugged in, and I used it in the far north in winter with air temps (not wind chill) of -42~46C. It used about 1l of oil a year, on a 1-year oil and filter change interval. More than once I had to go to the airport parking lot, fire it up, and bring it into camp to boost new FI Ford and Dodge gas and diesel trucks which would not start below -38C or so.

I have never owned a new vehicle and probably never will. I have changed a 1996 Ram I bought in September ... 230,000 km ... to Mobil1 and there are no leaks evident anywhere on the truck. I expect that truck to also last 8 years. I have also used it in a 1970's motorcycle ... notorious for leaks and designed to run straight 50 weight when new (multigrade is recommended by the MFR now) and it too does not leak oil. Neither does a 2001 PT Cruiser, a 1990 Mazda Miata, or any other vehicle I've owned or worked on in the last 15 years.

We used Synthetic in the John Deere Skid-Steer up north and it too did not exhibit any oil leaks when operated at temps down to -30C. The hydraulics didn't like the cold, so we could not run it during colder days, but the engine was fine with it. Stored in an unheated shop, it never failed to start quickly and easily.

I don't know what else to tell you ... I've heard the stories, have almost 30 years experience running Synthetic oils of extreme low Winter grade viscosity all on well used, high mileage engines, and oil leaks have never been a problem for me. Nor is that particular oil thin at extended operation or summer heat ... it gets above 35C often enough here in summer ...it is definitely not as thin than 10W-30 during hot summer months; it more closely resembles the AeroShell 20W-50 we use in the aircraft than anything else.

On top of that, I haven't had to call a tow truck for a boost in 20 years. I spend a lot of time nowhere near electricity for days and weeks to be able to use a block heater ... I expect my vehicles to start in any weather 100% of the time. I work north of the 58th parallel, and drive my used trucks there and back ... 1050 km total, both ways ... many times a year, where I am often the only person there, 30 km from the nearest trapper with a snowmobile, let alone a garage.

I've jump started a hundred vehicles that would not start and never needed the help myself, and to be honest I don't even know if the block heater in the 77 GMC ever even worked. I've never used it.

I don't know about anyone else, but that's good winter performance to me. For $60 once a year (just bought Mobil1 0W-40 at Parts Source, a chain owned by Canadian Tire, for $11 a litre x 5, and the Mopar filter for the Ram was $4.73 from the dealer). The same store had 5W-40 and 20W-50 Diesel in 5 litre jugs for $42 when I was in there; the 0W-40 only is stocked in 1 litre bottles. I've always bought it there, but I'd been in the NAPA store earlier that day and had a look, they wanted $16 a litre for it, and $13 for Shell Rotella 0W-40 Type III synthetic, so it pays to shop around.

I'm happy with the price, the winter and summer performance of the oil, and the value I get from the money.

[Johnny2Bad]

Just a quick note about oil changes and Diesel engines:

NEVER overfill the crankcase with engine oil on a diesel. This can cause a runaway condition that is extremely dangerous and typically leads to violent engine self-destruction at extreme high RPM, which you will be unlikely to stop.

Engine oil is a perfectly acceptable fuel to any engine with a compression ratio above 17:1 ... as most diesels are. If oil mist or vapour enters the combustion chamber via emissions lines or crankcase ventilation or any other means, this can cause a runaway condition. It can also happen on the road with moderate overfilling if a curve forces oil to one side of the sump.

Google "diesel runaway" if you're curious, or if you have a morbid desire to see a perfectly good motor explode all by itself, check out some YouTube video.

During a runaway, you will not be able to shut down the motor and RPMs may exceed the engine redline by 2 or 3x ... basically whatever RPM is required to get it to explode. Which it may do very quickly. Although there are some things you could try to stop the condition they are inherently dangerous. The safest thing is to exit the area as fast as possible and wait for whatever happens next in a safe place.

I don't think most DIYers are likely to forget whether they drained the used oil before they added a new fill, or will throw much more oil in than necessary, so if you change your own oil just be aware it's possible and pay attention to what you're doing when you change or add engine oil.

On the other hand a QuickLube employee or any shop that uses pressurized oil from a bulk tank might do either. It's been known to happen at dealers when employees were unfamiliar with diesel engines. As long as you catch it before you turn the key you can drain the excess oil and be fine.

Insist on seeing the dipstick after an oil change BEFORE you turn the key.

it is damaging to gasoline engines as well, but at least they won't self-destruct on the spot most of the time.