Alcohol-water injection for Turbo diesels Good cheap HP/TQ

[Jester]

Please check your PM's Guam.

[delicat]

guandoc,
You are a very patient man, I respect that!

Are you aware of negative side effect with this system? And do you know the parameters to follow to avoid any future issues with water and/or alcohol injection associated to our Delica? (max. boost pressure increase...) Or what changes/adjustments should be made to maximize the safety and performance of this system.

As you can see we are very protective of our babies (over protective maybe?) and would hate to be the fouled who ended up destroying his/hers engine to gain extra power. These are not fast by any means and I'm quite happy the way it is. If our vans could be safely improved with added fuel economy (which is more important to me than extra power) I'd be interested and would add it on my wish list.

With your statement that you'll make sure to have a system tested on a L300 Delica on your next test session it does shows good faith as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure why you got roughed up a little on this forum, you're in business and I think you're doing what you can to deliver your message... Just understand again that we only recently gained access to these great vehicles (last few years only) and we're just like kids with a new toy, don't try to take it out of their hand!!! Hence the over-protective attitude.

Thanks again and I'll be waiting to hear back with your future tests results.

Regards,
D.

[guamdoc]

Your engines are similar to just about every other 2.5L turbo diesel that japan makes it's almost the same, We have pajeros, Troopers, Spacegears, MPV's, Hilux, Fortuners, Dmax's, Crosswinds,and everything in between running these in the Philippines plus we sell alot to the VW TDI crowd as well.

These kits are plug and play and you don't have to touch a thing once you hook it up. your engines will only require a DO1gph or DO2gph depending on how much power you wanted and consumtion. There are no negatives with a properly installed alcohol/water injection system you can make as much or as little power as you like.

A 10hp gains to the wheels is 20hp at the crank and is noticable if that's all your looking for with 30 to 40lbs more tq you will have a better driving vehicle. The thing people notice right off the bat is the vehicle boost up faster and accelerates much better. Ever gone up a steep hill and at the same % throttle the vehicle starts to slow down? Now with extra power you will be using less throttle to go the same speed. Your not making tons more over stock power your just moving the power band to a earlier RPM. If you study the dyno sheets you can see what I am talking about.

Well one of your members who actually imports these will be getting together with me so he can give a (as it was stated) Independent source review.

[Green1]

Feel free to check out the others kits makers dealers as well.

so we ask for unbiased results, and the very best you can come up with, is other people who sell the kits?

This tells me lots of people sell them, but it doesn't do anything to convince me that they work or won't damage anything...

[guamdoc]

Feel free to check out the others kits makers dealers as well.

so we ask for unbiased results, and the very best you can come up with, is other people who sell the kits?

This tells me lots of people sell them, but it doesn't do anything to convince me that they work or won't damage anything...

With all the evidence your forum has been giving if you feel and all the vehicles that are out there running the kits from all the different makers , sound like you have not bothered to look up anything. You know what if you can find one article, one post anywere, post it up. If not I don't think you guys can be helped. Many forums have sections dedicated to just water/alcohol injection. You keep asking about the mystical engine damage how about you come up with something to convince everyone else about that?

Looks like a lost cause here. If you think all those performance shops with all there techs and mechs don't know anything about the something as simple as injection a fine mist of 40 to 30 micros of water/alcohol at 163ml/min and thats basically all your doing on your vehicle then you cannot be helped. If you don't know that for every liter of fuel that is burnt just under a liter of water is made during the combustion process than I also cannot convince you.

Look something like this for each 100 gallons of gasoline burned diesels are similar, If you don't believe me then feel free to look it up. Your worring about adding 63ml/min of water to a engine that is making gallons and gallon of it.

90-120 gallons of water
3 to 10 gallons of unburned gasoline
½ to 2 pounds of soot
¼ to 1 pound of resins and varnishes
1 to 4 pounds of nitrogen and sulfur acids
6 to 10 ounces of insoluble lead salts (if leaded gasoline is used)
1 to 2 ounces of hydrochloric and hydrobromic acids.

If you don't know that your engine is gulping down at least 50ml/min at 400rpms of water due to air saturation on a rainy day, I cannot help you. If you don't know adding extra O2 from the methanol adds power to the combustion process I cannot help you.

From the table below, you will note that air at 0C contains almost 30% more oxygen per given volume, than air at 77C.

Air Temperature
Air Density
% increase of oxygen

77C
0.9950 kg/m^3

40C
1.113 kg/m^3
+ 12% oxygen

27C
1.1614 kg/m^3
+ 17% oxygen

0C
1.2763 kg/m^3
+ 28% oxygen


So if your car is tuned for say 12.0:1 fuel mixture (rich) for maximum power and the air going into your engine is at 77C, you might make say 241bhp @ wheels. Now if you could get that intake air down to 0C and still have your engine tuned at 12.0:1 fuel mixture, you will make 30% more power based simply on oxygen levels in the air = 241bhp @ wheels x 1.3 = 314bhp @ wheels. That’s a massive 73bhp increase!!! Now obviously, unless your using dry ice somewhere along your intake path, you won’t get the air to 0C, but that is just to give you an indication of the true effects of air temps and their relation to power output.

And if none of the info on this entire post beside hooking the kit up to a vehicle for a year and taking the engine apart because I really don't know what kind of data you think your going to get with someone installing it , The only thing they can tell you what we already posted and you already have people who have been doing that for well over 20 years in some vehicles like the Buick grand national well then looks like its time to move on guys because it's not getting though.

If you want customer opinions just pop on any forum and there are a ton of them and ask one about it. Because you cannot take the info second hand.

[Jester]

send a sample to CVI (as per my PM which you never bothered to answer), we'll see what they have to say about this.
otherwise, start posting something besides your sales stuff.

You're welcome to stay, just let's change the topic-I think everything that could have been posted about your product, HAS been posted at this point.

[guamdoc]

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110213/article.html

Good source above for more info. And i talked to Mardy already on the phone 2 days ago for about 40 mintutes nice guy.

[Erebus]

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110213/article.html

Good source above for more info. And i talked to Mardy already on the phone 2 days ago for about 40 mintutes nice guy.

Yes, it was a good source of independent information. Thank you. However, only the last part was applicable to modern engines, and even then is specific to turbosupercharged or supercharged gasoline engines, not turbosupercharged diesel engines like the Delica has.

But it is the conclusion that sums it up quite nicely for me:

the data presented in this story is just a small sample of the information available from scientific and engineering sources. There’s absolutely no doubt that water injection, if properly engineered and integrated with the existing engine management system [emphasis added], can be highly effective.

In fact, to summarise:
* There is sound engineering behind the use of water injection.
* Water injection, with or without added alcohol, can massively increase the effective octane rating of fuel.
* The amount of water that has a positive effect can be as small as 10 per cent of the fuel flow (a water/fuel ratio of 0.1:1) and as high as 150 per cent of the fuel flow (a water/fuel ratio of 1.5:1).
* The water should be added in a fine spray.
* When water injection is being used, the air/fuel ratio can be leaned out at high loads without increasing the likelihood of detonation.
* When water injection is being used without any other engine ‘tune’ changes simultaneously being made (eg more advanced ignition timing, increased boost, increased compression ratio), power is likely to decline [emphasis added].
* Lower combustion temperatures are likely to lead to reduced heat load on the cooling system and lower exhaust gas temperatures.
* Water injection has a positive effect on emissions, especially in relation to NOx.

So, unless things like injection timing and fuel metering are adjusted to fit the injection system, and you make sure your reservoir is never empty, and you always use the same water/alcohol mixture, this is NOT something to be done. And what is the price of the alcohol versus the price of diesel? So even if you gain power, your price per kilometre will go up.

[guamdoc]

I said it was a good source and it is for the basics of water injection

Are you guys even looking at the dyno numbers of the vehicles tested they are bone stock no adjustments. How many dyno charts do you need to see or magazine articles do I need to post to get that point through I think the horse has been beat to death here.

They are talking about gas engines with the timing adjustments and boost and even that only fits a few vehicles part of the time. There is no black and white to performance gains but one fact remains if you use water alcohol injection on a turbo diesel you will gain power without touching a thing. Feel free to search turbo diesel dynos on the net. I can put up a 100 dyno charts from vehicles before and after and I don't think hard facts like real world dyno testing means anything on this forum.

Can't convince everyone no matter how much proof is out there.
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160/wa ... ion-55263/

If anyone is still interested in trying a kit out shoot me a PM and we will be happy to discuss a 10% discount. I don't think I can change any nay sayers minds with any more facts.

[Erebus]

I can put up a 100 dyno charts from vehicles before and after and I don't think hard facts like real world dyno testing means anything on this forum.

Can't convince everyone no matter how much proof is out there.

The simple fact is that no matter what dyno charts YOU post, people here will be suspicious, because you are trying to sell the product. What us skeptics need is independent information, like that in the Lotus link you posted ...

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160/wa ... ion-55263/

Where it is said ...

The Vette forums and the STI forums are loaded with hundreds of examples of users who've enjoyed the benefits of WI - here, it seems, there is much less applied use of WI on the charged/turbo engines. I surmise that is due to the lack of an abilty to properly custom "tune" for the WI by the masses and the lack of supportive published power-gains/IAT-decrease.

So, what tuning and specific tailoring do you offer for the Mitsu diesel?

I'll agree with you that this has been flogged. Until there are some independent long-term results posted of the mod on a Delica, I will remain unconvinced.

[MardyDelica]

Hi, guamdoc,
its not easy to convince member here to buy your water alcohol injection kit, this delica they have is like there second home, they used it everyday for themselve & family,treasure & enjoy this vehicle to keep it for long time.
they dont want to have problem in the near future if any problem accur.
cannot afford to spend more money for repair, i do hope you understand their point & concern. the cost of the kit is not expensive, so to purchase this is not an issue, as you know people is skeptical for what the affect on it.
it seems that this is good alternative as you mention. the only way for now is to try your kit & test it before selling it to them.
if you can give us free kit & can test it to one of my vehicle then will see from there. we have to do actual test on this not just a fact saying it works, need proof that its working good & the side effect towards the engine. its also a big risk for me when i do the testing of this kit you are selling as it might damage my engine & you cannot cover the cost of that,its very risky, no need to convince or elaborate to them they know exactly what you mean. its just you have to understand them.
hope this help you to understand their view & concern about the kit you are selling to them.
cheers;

[skysix]

Does anyone have any insight regarding propane injection on the Delica TD?

[garyo]

After many months without internet, back on line. I came across this old post. I was sceptical many years ago, but have seen the benefits of water-meth first hand. I drove a service truck with a 6bt cummins for quite a while (300,000 miles) with a system on it and loved it. my van is getting an intercooler this month. seems like a good time to put it on (and I am a cat and cummins certified mechanic) . just my 2 cents

[guamdoc]

Finally someone with a understanding of the system and the benefits, For some reason guys on here think there going to blow there engine buy adding 20% more overall power to the motor (That's only at Wide open throttle guys), Cooler engine temps, more power at less rpms, well you know the rest. Proven old school tech that has been around form many many years. I don't expect you convince many on here even if you do get a system. You'll just have the best running Delica out of the bunch.

Good luck on your install Garyo

[bae146]

After many months without internet, back on line. I came across this old post. I was sceptical many years ago, but have seen the benefits of water-meth first hand. I drove a service truck with a 6bt cummins for quite a while (300,000 miles) with a system on it and loved it. my van is getting an intercooler this month. seems like a good time to put it on (and I am a cat and cummins certified mechanic) . just my 2 cents

Let us know how well it works.