Alcohol-water injection for Turbo diesels Good cheap HP/TQ

[windsnob54]

so?? has the canadian deli community recieved a "demo" of this yet??

Guamdoc, these kits aren't that expensive, i'd buy one today if my neighbour told me his works awesome, i bet everyone here would. people here have offered to install it and report, has that happened?

again, this is a keen market for PROVEN upgrades. so yeah if Mardy says he's been running one for 10,20 or 50000km no problem... well his word (amongst others) is close to God around here...

[Green1]

considering that the only sources of information he could find were dealer websites, no unbiassed sources at all, and especially no scientific, peer reviewed sources...

It's like many snake-oil salesmen, spend most of their time insulting you for not wanting to try it, rather than show you any hard facts, mainly because there are none.

[Profister]

FYI
I just read related posts on Russian delicaclub.ru and found that 4D56T Intercooler is 114 HP. Not bad. It looks like we are far behind the rest of the world.:(

Sergiy.

[garyo]

Who`s insulting who here.

I for one am a believer in water-meth inj. if you dont get stupid with it.

The service truck I was speaking of got driven every day, hard miles, foot to the floor. When the rest of the truck was wore out and only worth scrap, the engine came out to repower a skidder. I take these engines apart every day, and this one looked remarkably good inside.

As I posted elsewhere, once I get the intercooler mounted in my van, the water is going on. I`ve already put in the fittings into the piping. All I have to do is pull out a pipe plug, screw in the nozzle. More power, less egt`s.

On a side note Green1, I heard about the trouble you had with your head. Do you have a pyro.

[Profister]

OK, I am mentally ready for this modification and my Delica does not mind either. So what is next? I am a driver, not a mechanic. Who can do the job?

[jessef]

Any competent mechanic can install it. Not a big job.

[PHIL]

Wow, interesting thread, with lots of diverse opinions. I have two questions that I didn't see answered, though I might have overlooked them...

1. How does this system work in the cold? When the air going into the airbox is already -20*c, is water injection going to make any difference? Is it something one would simply not use during the winter (depending on your outside temps of course) ?

2. How much "fluid" does it require? If I'm driving on the highway, with 10% increase in hp, am I going to be going through 4 or 5 liters of fluid every time I get fuel, or is it only injecting under WOT, and I'm only going through a liter a month? I know this is difficult to answer, and a lot has to do with driving style, etc, I'm just looking for ballpark figures... Having a SWB paj with small tank, and a 200km/day commute, I don't want to have to fill up my water injection reservoir every third day, in addition to my fuel tank...

As far as long term reliability, the situation is not much different than propane injection in my mind, which is also proven technology, and also not usu offered by the big three. If I can tow into BC's mountains in the summer without raising my EGTs and reducing the black smoke at the same time, its a win-win AFAIC.

[delicanuck]

Hi Gang,
I'm pretty much ready to try this out. I've read a lot about this and I have a friend who is a senior HD machanic and he says " Yep, water injection has been around for years and is used in a lot of places that you just wouldn't expect to look, like marine and locomotive engines. Works very well and can reduce a lot of issues related to temperature in the piston and exhaust temperature into the turbo, if you have those problems. Otherwise, it can and usually does result in an increase in performance." Having said that, I noticed that none of his fleet of a few hundred cement trucks uses water/meth injection......... Still, this seems like too good an idea for someone not to take the plunge.
Say Guamdoc! Can you stand one more question.... OK, a couple of questions?
It looks to me like you recommend that the water injector be located on the inlet side of the turbo. Question #1 : Is that correct? Locate the injection nozzle before the turbo as opposed to between the turbo and the manifold? Question #2: Is increased corrosion the turbo a consideration and if not, why not?

Thanks,

[guamdoc]

Say Guamdoc! Can you stand one more question.... OK, a couple of questions?
It looks to me like you recommend that the water injector be located on the inlet side of the turbo. Question #1 : Is that correct? Locate the injection nozzle before the turbo as opposed to between the turbo and the manifold? Question #2: Is increased corrosion the turbo a consideration and if not, why not?

Sorry I don't get on here much, still in Iraq.

Yes we recommend the pre-turbo injection for the really under powered vehicles (such as these) the difference is pretty noticeable, for one the turbo will perform like a larger turbo, boost up faster, have lower intake air temps, Lower EGT's ect. The turbo will also spool faster and gain a few psi of boost without using a boost controller or changing a single thing to the vehicle. This would be done with a 1gph nozzle. The atomization on this is ultra fine, You also have to include in that factor the amount of airflow going through the small 2 inch opening. Most of the mix pre-turbo if flashed to vapor rather quickly. The micron size of the droplets are not large enough to cause harm to the impeller of your turbo.

Second you can do a dual nozzle system and have one pre-turbo and one at the intake, this is the most effective. For these vehicles a 1gph nozzle at each would suffice.

Third you can just go with a 1gph to 2gph nozzle at the intake (after the turbo).

It's all about how you want your system to be set up. The benefits of the cleaning it does to the motors internal is worth every penny alone. A properly installed system has zero downsides.

For the one guys question about using this in the winter when the temp is -20, you probably won't really need the system on then, to run that you would be using at least 40% alcohol anyways so the mix would not freeze, The alcohol will give a big boost in power but it's probably not needed when it's that cold out, pretty sure snow is going to be on the ground at that point.

Fluid use depends on nozzle size and set points, These vehicles are pretty much always in the boost since they are fairly low power so you need to set it were you will need it the most are want the power. The 1gph nozzle does not use that much fluid, but i would recommend at least a 4 liter tank which can be mounted pretty much any place in the vehicle.

Remember this is used by turbo diesel old and new around the world.

[guamdoc]

Oh to Mardy that Toyota Fortuner is from the 2008 Auto Salon in Manila at the SMX center.

[RZ350]

I can only speak about high perfomance gasoline engines, but in those alcohol/water injection is quite common. It works so well in those applications that it is outlawed by most racing organizations.
As for diesels and why the manufacturers don't use it, well they are very concerned with people actually remembering to put distilled water in properly. By the way check out bluetec . Basically a hightech water injection system, using animal pee to reduce emmisions.
Just a couple of things for people to think about.
I wish I had some experience with it in diesels, but I'd probably give it a shot in a second vehicle (if I had one LOL)

[guamdoc]

Due to the nature of the pump and the fact we only use nickel plated fittings distilled water is not needed for our kits. You can use good old tap water if you like.

Alcohol/water injection will reduce diesel emissions around 80% the NOx drops down to next to nothing, It can only be created at a certain temp in the combustion process, If you keep your combustion temps down by lowering the EGT then NOx is not formed in the first place. It's one of the many reason vehicles that run water injection are pretty much spotless on the inside when it comes to carbon and soot buildup. Does the same for gas engines as well.

One of the big reasons it's not big with automakers people would just be to lazy to refill the tank as often.

[Erebus]

By the way check out bluetec . Basically a hightech water injection system, using animal pee to reduce emmisions.

There is a BIG difference between BlueTec's AdBlue system (Wikpedia link) and water/alcohol injection. The AdBlue urea injection is done into the exhaust, not into the intake.

[loki]

what happens to the water tank in the winter?

[delicanuck]

Hi Loki,
Theoretically, your water tank won't freeze unless it gets very cold because it will have a lot of alcohol in it. (Its always good to have alcohol in you in winter.) I think I recall that %40 alcohol is normal for injection, and my vague recollection is that it should be liquid to somewhere between minus 20 and minus 40 celsius, roughly the same as e.g. Vodka.