Glowplugs again (sorry)

[djelica]

Hi everyone and thanks for any comments in advance.

I bought my 94 L400 in the fall of 2009. It came with VSP CP-05 glow plugs. These did not last 2 months.

After a difficult search I found some German (Flennor) plugs that were not cheap and they lasted the rest of that winter and then failed in the winter of 2011 (lasted about a year).

I finally found ceramic NGK CY55 and paid even more. They appeared to be a much better plug, but two are now dead after 2 years.

My question is: are Genuine Mitsubishi glow plugs really going to last any longer than the NGKs at probably twice the cost? In my search I have found conflicting answers so I’m looking for some one with personal knowledge. I saw some old posts by Jesse F. that made it sound like these glow plugs will last, but then found other posts from the UK that suggest that they also will fail within a few years (if this is the case then just go with the cheaper NGKs I guess).

Is the genuine article worth it or is changing glow plugs a constant occurrence with these engines?

Cheers

PS if the real deal is really better does anyone know where to get them.

[Firesong]

Is this for a 6.2volt plug?

[Firesong]

Oops my bad.. Didn't notice l400 up above

[CREGAN]

From my experience, I have had my van for about 2.5 years and I had some crappy plugs it came with it that didn't last the fall (bought van in April). So I put in some Hyundai plugs and they didn't last the first winter. SO, I bucked up and bought some NGK's and they have performed well since August.

From this I think that if you got 2 years out of the NGK's then that is pretty good. I don't have any experience with the green tops but it all comes down to paying $200 a set for the NGK's and isn't it like $400 for the Greens. If the greens lasted 4 years it would all equal out right? You would just get to enjoy the experience of changing them once in the middle of the 4 with another set of the NGK's.

I am happy with the NGK's so far. Glow plugs seem very disposable with our vans, which sucks but I have made peace with it.

Craig

[Pajero]

I have tried Hyundai, HKT, E-techno, and now have ordered NGK plugs all the others did not last a full year...and the Hyundai ones the tips burnt off a couple of them....So I have now wired in a manual switch because mine were staying on for up to two minutes after it started up...so now i'll press the button for 5-7 seconds and fire it up should save the glow plugs I hope, as this is getting to be expensive....

Joe

[Manitoba deli]

I on the other hand, have personally had good luck with the cheaper glow plugs. My first set of hkt's lasted 3 year's. The hyundia's I've installed have been in for just over 2 years, and are still working. The glowplugs on the 2.8l will stay on for up to 3 minutes after start up, depending on engine temperature, and this is normal. Driving while the glowplugs are working definitely shortens their lifespan. Let your engine warm up, summer and winter. I've also noticed that my customers who mix veg oil with their fuel seem to be getting a shorter life out of their glowplugs (all are l300 drivers, both 6.2v and 12v) I'm starting to think the oil may coat and insulate the glowplugs, causing them to burn out early. (just my theory for now). The biggest thing to remember for the 2.8l engines is that they need a self regulating glow plug like the hyundia ones. Basically what they do is, as they heat up, the resistance in the glowplug decreases, allowing the current to flow faster, generating less heat. This is the reason they can stay on for 3 minutes without burning out. Once they reach their proper temperature, they stay at that temp. because of the decrease in resistance. It is also important to make sure your batteries are up to snuff, and that all the contacts for the glowplug system are good. This includes the temp. sensor, relay, bus bar, glowplug control unit(ecu) and all grounds. If all this checks out, and you are operating the vehicle correctly, there is no reason you shouldn't get 2-3 years from a set of hyundia or other self regulating glowplugs. And the factory ones are made by NGK exclusively for Mitsubishi on the 2.8l They are good, but there are others equally as good.
Jason

[djelica]

Hey thanks for your input everyone.

I have to do quite a bit of cold starting in places where there is no electricity and wind up cycling the plugs a few times when it's colder than -5 or so. I really wish I could find glow plugs that would last 5 years when it's cold and there is no electricity (I found out how much I love my block heater when the cord shorted out this fall). I would pay $125 a piece for plugs if I got a five year guarantee as changing plugs in these kinds of conditions is no fun and I just don't like to crank the starter for that long when they do start to fail.

For the past week when I have tried starting at +5 and it's not plugged in I have had to crank for almost a minute or more to get it going. I have two agm batteries that have a ton of ccas, run 0-40 or 5-40 oil year round and the rest of the system is in good shape (modified bus bar with clean contacts all around). This is the only reason I can get it started when the glow plugs start to go and it's not plugged in.

Anyway, today I got a chance to take a look and sure enough two of the NGKs are dead. I replaced the two dead with the last two working from the German set and I'm going to run with that until I make a decision.

Jason, I wonder if your good luck has anything to do with how you operate your L400. I know you have block heaters in your vans, but I think you also use diesel pre-heaters, if I'm not mistaken. Does your vehicle ever get really frozen or do you keep it warm all winter. I know if I plug mine in (and if it's really cold I put a little electric heater on the intake manifold) I can start it when it's -20 or worse with a few cycles of the plugs.

Do you cycle your plugs often? When starting an unplugged L400 in -20 how long should you have to crank? How many times should you cycle the plugs?

Sorry about all the questions Jason, but by being a diesel mechanic from Manitoba who knows cold and is willing to help out on a forum I just have to ask. Thanks again to anyone else that replies.

Darren

Edit to add: thanks Jason for the tip on warming up until the glow plugs go off. I guess I got the idea that diesels needed to be driven to warm up (I start gently), but waiting until the glow plugs cycle off makes a lot of sense. I'm going to adopt that from now on and see if there is any improvement on glow plug life. Cheers.

[chris]

FYI if you want the ngks search ngk cy55 on ebay. I had a good experience with the first seller (UK) that comes up and received my set in a week for $150.

[CREGAN]

That is a good point about letting them do their thing on start-up. I have found that my van in general is running and starting better when I start it and let it buck and fart for a few minutes- sort itself out, and then drive away. A block heater is brilliant in the fall/winter/spring, but with my Hyundai's I had to keep it plugged in in the summer.

I also forgot to add that I changed my coolant temp sensor when I put the new glow plugs in last summer. I think it was a wise investment- the old one looked visibly worn and old.

Craig

[Manitoba deli]

Hey Darren, you are sort of right that I like to keep my van warm, I did have a webasto on it, but this has been the second winter without it. I had taken it off to do some mods, and haven't had time to put it back on, kind of an expensive piece of hardware to be collecting dust on the shelf. Also, I do like to keep it plugged in when not in use, however, I replaced my hkt's that I installed in August of '09 with hyundia plugs in October of '12. (I've been using hyundia's for customers for a bit over 2 years with good results). Anyways, in Nov. I noticed the van was getting grumpy when starting, and my natural thought process was "drat, I got a bad glowplug in the batch, and it burnt out. I'm going to have to admit that there are some crappy plugs with the hyundia's" I didn't have time to look at it with having to get everything around the farm ready for my winter off with knee surgery. My wife used the van all winter, keeping it plugged in at home, but no plug available where she works. Grumpy starts all winter. About a month ago, while staying overnight in Wpg, I tried to plug in the van, it was -20C and I didn't want to smoke out the neighbors. The place we were staying had gfi plugs, and my van kept tripping the fault interrupter, had to leave it unplugged. Next morning, the van was grumpy starting, but no more than usual. When I got home I checked my block heater, and the cord was bad. I checked the glowplugs, and they were all good. My van went a whole Manitoba winter with no block heater. It does have 0W-40 synthetic oil, and dual agm batteries. Had I known the block heater wasn't working, I would have told my wife to cycle the glowplugs once before starting, but did not. Cycling the glowplugs does shorten their lifespan, but it is a sacrifice you sometimes have to make. We do wait 7 seconds, for the second click of the relay before cranking, not the 2 seconds for the light. I don't think there was a time we ever had to crank more than 30 seconds. I have to say, I was impressed with what the van did for us, and the hyundia plugs performed as they should. If you are having to cycle your glowplugs to get the van started at temps above -20C (when using 0W-40 oil) then I would check other issues causing hard starts, like weak injectors and IP timing. These issues can cause hard starting, and cycling your plugs will help some, but definetly shortens their life.
Jason

[Manitoba deli]

Another problem that can cause hard starting, is cracked precombustion chambers. This can only be checked by pulling the head, and can only be fixed by replacing the head. I wouldn't suggest looking for this until after doing the injectors and IP seals and timing. Cracked precup's are almost always the result of using ether (starting fluid). Starting fluid and Indirect diesel injection systems are like alcohol and pregnancy. Some will argue that a little is OK, but unfortunately there is no way to know what "a little" is, and the limit isn't known until after the damage is done. Zero tolerance is the safest limit, unfortunately, you don't know how the previous owner cared for your baby. Just because the can says "safe for use on all engines" doesn't make it true. It seems to be that too often, burnt glowplugs, are blamed for hard starting, but are the symptom of a bigger problem, not the cause. It's not generally what people want to hear, it's easier to just get on the bandwagon and blame the plugs, and keep on trying different brands. There are some poorly made glowplugs out there, and unfortunately with the good ones, there is the odd dud, but this is not normally the case. If you have gone through 2 or more sets of glowplugs of varying brands in a short time period (less than 3 years) then it is time to dig deeper. You can definitely round this one up to being my 5cents worth.
Jason

[djelica]

Thanks again Jason for your very detailed response.

I was jus thinking about doing the injectors as they have not been done and I'm at 216K. The IP seal was done in 2010 and I have been contemplating what I will refer to as the CVI deli tune (Valve Adjustment, Injection Timing Adjustment, Ultrasonic Cleaning of Injectors) this spring.

I will then replace the glow plugs with a fresh set and see how things go this winter. I am really hoping there is no pre-combustion chamber damage, but I have to say that just having it plugged in or with good plugs it starts up pretty easy. Although I can't know for certain I don't think it's the issue (never use ether and I bet the owners in Japan never had to either).

So even in -20 you are only cranking for 30 seconds. Maybe with the tune up I can also achieve this.

Also thanks CREGAN, chris, Pajero and others for your comments.

Darren

[BackRoads]

It seems to be that too often, burnt glowplugs, are blamed for hard starting, but are the symptom of a bigger problem, not the cause.

Along this line, when I started my L400 when it was already at operating temp, my glow plugs would stay on at full voltage for the full 3 minutes. I believe this was prematurely wearing them out. Seems like the water temp sensor wasn't telling the ECU to turn off the plugs when the motor was warm. Sensor replaced.

Check to make sure your plugs aren't staying on for 3 minutes when your van is already warm.

Cheers

[djelica]

More good points. Thanks BackRoads.

I'm going to get a full check up soon, but if my van is warm the glow plugs click on and off faster than their usual 7 seconds depending on how warm the van still is. So I think everything there is good.

Cheers

[Diver]

This has come up in the UK a fair bit. For some people their motors would eat all makes of glowplug no matter how expensive while others (like me) would get years out of the very cheapest. There appears to be mounting evidence (as suggested above) that the difference is whether you've had your injectors refurbed/recalibrated or not.