GREAT brake upgrade (+ info on hubs/bearings)

[Mystery Machine]

Yesterday my buddy Mark Giles and myself spent 14+ hrs playing with various hubs/bearings/discs/calipers and carriers from different Mitsubishi models trying to work out what could be fitted to my L300!!

The conclusion from many hours of head scratching and scraped knuckles is that L400 front hub assemblies would be SO cool on an L300 if only they didn't throw the camber out by a CRAZY amount! They would give a standard L300 a 1" lift and sharper/more responsive steering.....but unfortunately, the built in alignment of the top knuckle arm meant there is no way you could adjust the camber into anything sensible! :( :(

L300 VS L400 hub & knuckle:


L300 height:


L400 height:


Nearly 1" of lift between the two.....but it's a real shame that the L400 hub throws the camber out by this much AFTER adjusting the camber to its max....


Bearings from most models seemed fairly interchangeable except for the front hub rearward wheel bearings from an L400 and 2.8 Pajero which are larger for some reason?? My car is now running a combination of Pajero, L400 and L300 bearings due to mine exploding after the auto free-wheel hub decided to retire on me. I've also stuck the hub/driveshaft end plates from a 2.8 Pajero on until I can get some decent manual locking hubs. My front drive shafts are now constantly engaged, but that is better than the self-destructing Auto hubs and will do until I sort the manual ones out.....

One lovely mod for any L300 owner to consider is to replace the standard single piston calipers with twin piston ones from the MkII 2.8 Pajero or L400. These calipers are notorious for siezing up (slide bolts AND pistons!!) but if they are free moving and not corroded, then fitting a set is well worth while due to the extra braking you can get from them.

Look at the difference between the 2.5 caliper (on top of the upper wishbone) and the 2.8 one:


Here is the finished mod....and quite an improvement over the original brake power although I suspect I'll be having to keep a closer eye on the pistons because they are more likely to sieze than the L300 ones.....having said that, with the way I drive, there is no way these pistons will have chance to sieze!

2.8 Paj caliper on the L300 knuckle:


2.8 Paj caliper with trimmed L300 disc backplate and L300 hub & disc:


You need to cut some of the brake disc back plate away to enable them to fit, but I can confirm the following set-up for anyone thinking of upgrading their brakes?

Hub: Standard L300
Knuckle: Standard L300
Disc: Standard L300
Disc backplate: Modified L300
Caliper: 2.8 Paj or 2.8 L400
Caliper carrier: 2.8 Paj or 2.8 L400
Pads: 2.8 Paj or 2.8 L400

It's a basic 'plug & play' caliper/carrier swap, but you'll need to remove/replace the L300 back plates for trimming/shaping before being able to bolt the calipers straight on. The Paj/L400 caliper carriers are a perfect match for the L300 knuckle!!! :D Make sure you give any 2nd hand calipers a good overhaul before attempting to fit them on your pride & joy!!

Hopefully this info will be of some use to some of you L300 owners??

I drove 60+ miles home last night....and considering I am still bedding in the new pads, the brakes felt very responsive and more positive. I can't wait until they have bedded in properly....stoppies here we come!!

[Mystery Machine]

....and while I was working under the car, I couldn't resist the urge to add another promo for the club! Maybe not too neat, but you never know who is gonna see it?



It can be seen quite clearly with the wheel on too.....and is the perfect height to be viewed by anyone in a 'conventional' car!

[delicat]

That great artistic painting cracks me up!

[josh]

Bruce,

Thanks for yet another brilliant play by play for a great upgrade, I'll be getting to that as soon as the snow melts. Thanks for the PM pointing me towards it as well, I haven't been on the ball lately. Working to hard. Oh and just a thought, when you visit do you think you could help me with some of that custom paint for my ride, possibly a mdocuk.com paint job?

Josh

[Mystery Machine]

Thanks Josh - looking forward to the phonecall! Will be great to catch up.

Just for info (for anyone - not just Josh) the brakes are the same as on 95% of 2.8TD engined mitsubishi's - so the 2.8 Monteray (sp?) has the same brakes and I would reckon on you guys having more chance of sourcing some from one of these than an L400!! (I assume the Monteray is the same as the Pajero/Shogun??)

[asorensen]

Bruce, I am a suspension rookie so bare with me. Were you trying to get the l400 knuckle to work instead of a ball joint spacer, just because you had them available? Not that I fully understand ball joint spacers but isn't this the intention of a spacer? In your opinion do you think would you have the same alignment issues,namely inability to adjust camber to anything usable? I have been thinking about attempting to create a spacer but maybe I am wasting my time. I have a cnc mill so the actually making of the part precisely and consistently would be possible although,as mentioned, I am a suspension rookie so I thought I better do some research first.
Any thoughts?

Andy

[Mystery Machine]

Hi Andy,

You are correct. We were trying to see if it is possible make the L400 knuckle work as a 'plug & play' 1" lift which unfortunately it isn't!

I have just got off the phone to Josh where we spent 1hr discussing lifts, ball joints, camber issues etc.....

Without going into a massive amount of detail, the principal off adding a spacer in the balljoint is quite simple - yet the complexities of getting it to work while maintaining a stable upper pivot point, keep castor and camber anywhere near correct and making it safe to drive are quite tricky!

I have spent literally MONTHS and many many ££££'s designing different ball joint spacers and only recently worked out how to make a 2" block. I have 4" blocks on the Mystery Machine (sourced from Japan) and these are quite complex castings that have offests built in between the ball joint pivot and the upper arm on the knuckle to cater for the camber and castor etc....trying to translate this into a 2" block that can be fabricated AND be strong AND keep the camber offsets AND fit within the 2" space was very tricky to say the least!

I will hopefully be making up some drawings that I can pass onto Josh so that he can see about getting some made over in Canada (funnily enough he mentioned your name and was thinking of speaking to you about fabrication)

Don't try and do it alone - it is a minefield when you try and get into the offests.....leave it with me and hopefully you'll have some drawings to work from within a couple of weeks.....

Cheers for now,

Bruce.

[asorensen]

Thanks for the response Bruce.

My goal is to have the van sit only a little higher than the maxed out torsion bars (TBS) would allow. This would allow the TBS to actually do their job and not wear out to quickly.

Is it sensible to think that a two inch spacer would give you two inches at the wheel or would there be a fulcrum effect and in fact it would be greater at the wheel then the thickness of the spacer? (wow wordy sentence!)

Thanks

Andy

[Mystery Machine]

A 2" spacer will give you 2" of lift - but it somehow looks a lot more! You really need to make sure that you put 2" spacers in the chassis subframes too....this will keep the upper and lower wishbone parallel, but it is also a LOT of work because you have to remove all the front suspension mountings, torsion bars etc....then lower the front subframe complete with axle/steering....then put the blocks in with new longer bolts (some of them have to be metric fine in order to fit the captive chassis nuts...but you guys can probably get metric fine more easily than we can here in the UK?)

Then you start on the rear subframe (the one the engine mounts to) where you have to cut the lower part of the cross beam off and extend it by 2" in order to clear the (now lower) front propshaft.

There is quite a bit of work involved and most people here in the UK understimate how much a lift entails...most seem to think you just undo a few bolts and slide some spacers in! They dont see that you have to extent steering arms, brake pipes, insert special shims to insert into the front knuckles etc....then you have to buy longer shocks too....and this is before you start on the back! (not quite so complex)

PM me your number and I'll try and call you one night to talk you through a bit more about it. It's a bit difficult trying to get the detail on here.

Regards,

Bruce.

P.S. Here is a picture of everything you need to do a 3" lift (2" blocks as discussed above)....just to give you an idea of what is involved:


and here is a picture of my friends L300 that I lifted last year:

[delica 304]

I would soooo love to get that suspension mod, but a $1900.00 repair bill has not just burnt a hole in my wallet, but burnt a hole, dragged the wallet behind an incontinent elephant for a hundred miles and buried the remains in a peat bog!

(I'm hoping my warranty will cover some of the repairs)

[thelazybrownfox]

Hey Bruce
Do you have any idea what caused the gouging on the rotor(s). Mine gouged after installing new ceramic pads and new rotors. Both sides gouged but only on the outside of the rotors. I didn't change the calipers at the time and may change them soon.

The pads didn't damage at all but the rotors both gouged. I had forgotten about the rotors till I saw your pics.

I am continually impressed with the innovative ideas you have and the changes you make. Your mystery machine is a wonder to behold.

Take care
Wayne

[mararmeisto]

Just to revive this post - I did the brake upgrade for entirely different reasons, and it's excellent. I made the change for towing reasons, but as I explained at the First Annual CCAutos Customer Appreciation Days (First ACCACADs), I've found the following differences between the L300 setup and the L400/Pajero setup:

• -a surer response, it grabs better and seems to hold the van more solidly;
  -while the nose still dives, it doesn't ease up as much (I described this at the meet as no longer being able to 'bounce' the front end while stopped - easing off the brakes and then jamming on them again and letting the nose bounce up-and-down);
  -stopping distance IS shortened! (there are still just as many retards driving in front of me, but now I've got a better chance of avoiding them);
  -and finally, the pedal does travel a little bit farther than before (probably due to the increase in brake fluid used during braking; it's marginal, but noticeable).

As stated by jfarsang and Mystery Machine, the differences are:

• -bigger pads (more surface area);
  -bigger calipers, with two pistons vice one;
  -thicker rotors (the L400/Pajero rotor is 24mm vice 20mm) and the cooling-fin arrangment is slightly different (looks like it might be better cooling, better air flow through the rotor).

I haven't done any serious towing with the new brake setup as of yet, but we are in the market for another camping trailer, so I'll report back when I get a sense of that. Wanted a better setup in case the brakes on the trailer failed.

In closing, making the change is not NECESSARY unless you can justify it. The van was designed with sufficient braking capability, but this was a change that three of us have made for three different reasons (from what I can determine). It is a bolt-on change, but if you don't need better brakes, don't spend the money. I'd put this mod in the same category as a snorkel: unless you're going to be crossing the Fraser River from time-to-time and you don't want drive the extra bit to use a bridge, you probably don't need a snorkel.

[jessef]

I would recommend anyone who will be replacing their front brakes (rotors/calipers/pads) to do this upgrade.

I have found that the 92+ (twin piston) brakes are cheaper than the pre-91 (single piston's).

Cardone semi-loaded calipers start at $50
Bendix semi-loaded calipers start at $55
Raybestos semi-loaded calipers start at $59
Beck/Arnley loaded calipers start at $80

Same goes with the rotors and pads.

I'm assuming this is because the 92-98 Mitsubishi Montero NA line has X amount of vehicles that were sold in the US. Hence, more choice and less cost.

On another note, I'm now running 1989 Mitsu Montero rear seals, drums, shoes, cylinders & hardware for the past 2 weeks with my mechanic doing a check on them every few days.

Zero issues. No irregular wear or forced contact points.

My entire brakes from calipers, rotors, pads, drums, shoes, hardware, wheel bearings, oil seals are all from NAPA using 89 Mitsubishi Montero for the rear and 92 Mitsubishi Montero for the fronts.

[4whl_billycart]

L300 VS L400 hub & knuckle:

Hi Mystery & other guys doing the upgrade. Have only just seen this post even though I thought I had read through before hand. Bugger: as its interesting.

Have you looked at the the differences in the top & / or the bottom wish bones between the 300 & the 400's. If the camber is affected by the addition of the 400 stub axle, is the bottom 400 wish bone wider. If that is the case then track width would be slightly larger which may be a slight bonus after changeover(providedthey are compatible) The same minds set would apply in reverse to the top wish bone. Interesting find bloke.

Re the extra brake pedal travel: ther must be a difference in the master cylinder diametre.

[4whl_billycart]

bump.....