inverter install fuse question

[after oil]

ive got a xantrex xpower 1000 inverter

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/837/docserve.aspx

i understand i need to install an inline fuse into the positive cable. what kind of fuse do i need?

my batteries dont say the short circuit current rating, not in english anyway

this from the instructions:

1. Determine the total short-circuit current rating for your batteries. For
example:
• If you are using one battery to power your inverter and its short circuit
current rating is 500 A, the total short-circuit current rating
is 500 A.
• If you are powering your inverter with two 12 V batteries
connected in parallel, and each battery has a short-circuit current
rating of 500 A, the total short-circuit current rating is 1000 A.
• If you are powering your inverter with two 6 V batteries
connected in series, and each battery has a short-circuit current
rating of 500 A, the total short-circuit current rating is 500 A.

also, any ideas where you would mount an inverter?

[BCDelica]

Where are you going to plug most things in and when are you plugging things in; driving or parked? The platform behind the driver’s seat is a good location, central in the vehicle requiring less heavy gauge then a back of vehicle mount. Beside even one mounted just behind the rear heater controls made plugging something in well driving impossible.

Choosing a fuse is tricky with an inverter and a 12v system; good idea is to determine your highest draw from a plug in gizmo (beach blender, etc). Use Ohm's law, Watts/12v=Amps but take into account that the inverter doesn't operate at 100% efficiency and neither does the fuse. For example ran a pump that reportedly surged at 500 watts off my 750 amp inverter, at 95% efficiency would be a 525Watts draw; 525/12 = 43.75 Amps. But the inline automotive fuse was only 30amps and never once failed/fused with repeated pump use.

I know your already spending lots of money getting ready for your trip, but have you considered a battery isolator? Ask Collin at Napa; remember they always had a $75 one in stock. The contractors electrical sales on Duncan (near the Ambulance station) used to be a good source of connector and wire for a 12 volt project like yours.

[after oil]

Where are you going to plug most things in and when are you plugging things in; driving or parked? The platform behind the driver’s seat is a good location, central in the vehicle requiring less heavy gauge then a back of vehicle mount. Beside even one mounted just behind the rear heater controls made plugging something in well driving impossible.

Choosing a fuse is tricky with an inverter and a 12v system; good idea is to determine your highest draw from a plug in gizmo (beach blender, etc). Use Ohm's law, Watts/12v=Amps but take into account that the inverter doesn't operate at 100% efficiency and neither does the fuse. For example ran a pump that reportedly surged at 500 watts off my 750 amp inverter, at 95% efficiency would be a 525Watts draw; 525/12 = 43.75 Amps. But the inline automotive fuse was only 30amps and never once failed/fused with repeated pump use.

I know your already spending lots of money getting ready for your trip, but have you considered a battery isolator? Ask Collin at Napa; remember they always had a $75 one in stock. The contractors electrical sales on Duncan (near the Ambulance station) used to be a good source of connector and wire for a 12 volt project like yours.

i think the end of my bed is going on the platform behind the drivers seat. my thought is on the vertical wall behind the drivers seat, leaving plenty of clearance. instructions say dont mount it on a combustible surface so ill cut out the carpet there if thats where it goes.

i shouldnt be plugging and unplugging while driving. better to run AC extension cords then long DC wire

the instructions about the fuse threw me off with 500A and jive like that.

theres an electrical supply place here? in PR? or are you reminiscing?

i think ill have to pass on the battery isolater. every time i ask a question here i get inspired to spend more money (bushranger, superwinch, batt idolater, solar panel etc etc) but HEY! i asked! and i secretly love to buy stuff for my secret love

[TardisDeli]

Hi After Oil,

Jay of the TardisDeli has installed this same inverter on several delii (and professionally on boats). MUST install 300 amp fuse (have known of 2 events where this model started smoking whilst NOT in use, so just DO it). We use marine grade Blue Seas brand, easily obtained from boat supply stores. If you want to visit us, Jay will happily install it for an A&W Meal, but you pay for the parts.

Our inverter is mounted vertically on the wall behind the drivers seat, with a microwave sitting atop it on the ledge of the engine wall. Engine must on run while microwave is on, but this is just for a few minutes -- priceless when camping, stuck in ferry lineups. Also use inverter for electric blanket, small 350 w kettle, etc. And we have a queen size foam which gets folded back when microwave door is opened. We use 1 -27 series battery, no isolator. Had this setup for a year.

Questions, phone Jay on cell 604-961-1390 (always happy to chat and answer technical q). Best after 6pm till 11 pm. Jay reads the postings, so feel free to ask questions, but he can't type so best to PM him with a phone number. Cheers, Christine.

[after oil]

hi tardis folk! thanks for chiming in, i hoped you would, being the experts and all.

quote tardis deli

Jay of the TardisDeli has installed this same inverter on several delii (and professionally on boats). MUST install 300 amp fuse (have known of 2 events where this model started smoking whilst NOT in use, so just DO it). We use marine grade Blue Seas brand, easily obtained from boat supply stores.

quote bcdelica

Choosing a fuse is tricky with an inverter and a 12v system; good idea is to determine your highest draw from a plug in gizmo (beach blender, etc). Use Ohm's law, Watts/12v=Amps but take into account that the inverter doesn't operate at 100% efficiency and neither does the fuse. For example ran a pump that reportedly surged at 500 watts off my 750 amp inverter, at 95% efficiency would be a 525Watts draw; 525/12 = 43.75 Amps. But the inline automotive fuse was only 30amps and never once failed/fused with repeated pump use.

i bought an 30A automotive circuit breaker. its a little brass colored box with 2 terminals. im not married to it though, so perhaps i should look for a 300A? choosing a fuse IS tricky

quote tardisdeli

Our inverter is mounted vertically on the wall behind the drivers seat, with a microwave sitting atop it on the ledge of the engine wall.

this from the users manual for the inverter:

2. Select an appropriate mounting location and orientation. The XPower
1000 must be oriented in one of the following ways:
• Horizontally on a vertical surface.
(The ventilation opening on the DC end must not point up or
down.)
• On or under a horizontal surface

today i started to run wire to the area behind the drivers seat, with intention to mount the inverter with the fan and terminals towards the drivers' side wall, and the AC plug towards the passenger side. mounted on the vertical wall of the "hump"

the wire goes from the battery along the top of inside the engine compartment and through into the air intake area and then through the wall near the glow plug relays (i guess thats what they are...)

is it okay to mount it right on the carpet, or should i cut it away and mount it to bare metal?

If you want to visit us, Jay will happily install it for an A&W Meal, but you pay for the parts.

id absolutely love to meet you guys and visit, but i dont think ill make it to vancouver before i leave for the big trip

[after oil]

https://bluesea.com/application/2/12/products/5000



is this the blue seas fuse and block in question?

[TardisDeli]

Hi After Oil,

Jay says you need a T-Class fuse, and 300 amps (not a wimpy 30 amps). Looks quite different to the picture you posted.

Part# 5002 for the fuse HOLDER (soon to be renamed 5502 says the website). and the fuse itself id #5119. Lordco can get BlueSea products, available from their wholesaler Western Marine in Vancouver, so easily available. BlueSea is a Bellingham company, so local support and quality product.

The website is http://bluesea.com/products/5002
Note: 5002 will be replaced by 5502
* Large heat dissipating tin-plated copper mounting blocks
* Two # 8 accessory terminals located on each end
* The fuse system recommended by most inverter manufacturers for high speed response to short circuits
* Clear insulating cover, satisfies ABYC/USCG requirements
* For use on systems up to 160 Volts DC

Yes, do not mount it on the carpet, but dont cut your carpet. Jay built a little U shaped shelf container, of a thick hard polypropylene plastic, approx 1/2 inch thick, the top of the U shelf is level with the top of the engine hump, so there is room for the microwave to sit atop this shelf. Then the back of the U shape is fastened directly to the back of the engine wall (goes thru to the back wall of the air filter area, so you can see where your fastener comes out), then the lower part of the U shape comes out below the inverter to about an inch in front of the inverter, so gear can't smash into the inverter, nor block the cooling of the inverter. This leaves about 1.5 inches between the floor and the bottom of the U shelf.

The wires go thru a hole made into the back of the air filter area, next to the frame, so wires not messy inside the passenger area. This leaves the guage visible to those sitting on the rear seats, as it faces towards the centre of the deli.

Must use #2 guage wire to run to the battery, yes it's expensive, but needed. Installed the T-fuse within 12 inches of the battery, mounted to the wall behind the battery.

(Sorry, no photos, but can take some Friday evening and email you, send us your private email, cuz we don't know how to shrink em to fit the delica site size).

Feel free to phone. I will PM you his private email, so you can send photos of your questions.

Cheers, Christine, on behalf of Jay.

[after oil]

AWESOME tardis! thanks. i was close with the fuse i found at bluesea, i saw the 5002/5119 on the website too. i might be able to get one of those here in powell river this morning wheni go out. im working on this project in a friends shop while he works on my bumper/swingout tire carrier. im away from the internet and phones when im working on it.
i did get #2 wire. i cut the wire for the fuse, but ive got the fure nearer to the inverter in the air cleaner area, but i can see why putting it nearer to the battery would be smarter and safer, so i ll switch it around. i am curious about your polypropylene container.

i'll pm with photo shrinking tips..

[Green1]

Tardis: I would love to see pictures of your setup, I too have purchased the same inverter, and have been debating mounting locations, where you describe is one of the options, I can figure out the wiring and such, but I'd be curious to see how you mounted the physical box in the passenger area. Also curious if it interferes with the captains chair in that area?

[after oil]

i finished the wiring today! i went to buy the fuse suggested by tardis, but it was $160 with the mount!!! i didnt buy it. instead, i got this block model number 5005 and a 200A fuse like this
together cost about $60. recommended by the local marine supply store.

everything works fine!

i havent actually mounted the inverter yet. i think ill mount is on a heavy piece of steel. christine, could you show us a phot of your and the u shape polypro protector?

[TardisDeli]

Hi All, Christine here. Giving my opinionated inverter info. Jay gone boating.

OK I have posted to the delica online photo album, under TardisDeli : inverter pictures. Don't know how to post the link (enuf stress learning upload photo), if you wanna wire an inverter you can probably figure out. look at the menu choices above, just beside the choice of "View Active Topics".

I also tell you below about general delica camping ideas involving electricity, written for non-technical person.

5 photos uploaded, I will see if I can manage to put a few more on today.

U SHAPED SHELF: it cradles the inverter, protects it from milk crates and junk, ensures adequate air flow all around, also is a mechanism to mount the inverter to, provides a shelf for the microwave to sit on, leaves about 1.5 inches below shelf for hiding stuff. Top of U shelf is flush with top if engine wall, so microwave happily sits there, strapped to the shelf, with a big basket atop the microwave with tea & cocoa & biscuits and tinned food ready to microwave. Made of thick (1/2 inch or more) hard plastic similar to butcher block plastic, easy to sand saw drill cut just like plywood, but does not flex like plywood, and doesnt catch fire. FIRE you ask, well of course you will put the 300 amp inline fuse installed near the battery, cuz you don't want to rewire the entire burnt out delica. Leave the carpet in place, too noisy and cold otherwise, just drill through the carpet, which wont really leave a mark if you later remove the inverter as you just brush the carpet fibres over the little drill hole.

WIRE:
On the top right is the thick red wire, 2 guage, use nothing smaller. Can't see the 300 amp fuse (like in the photos After Oil posted above) as it is a huge inline fuse installed within 12 inches of the battery (ours is 5 inches from battery). Do not use lesser wire. DO NOT. Inverter will whine if underpowered. Already we have a run of 5 feet of wire from battery, which causes some voltage drop. Below the red wire are brown wires, those are Jay fancy stuff, runs to the battery charger when we plug in to "shore power".

"Shore Power" means power you get from outside, means when you plug your extension cord of your boat into the electricity provided at a boat dock, or an RV into a campground electrical outlet. We have an external plug hole drilled into the outside of the deli, just by the inverter, just behind the driver door. So, that is why on the top left of inverter are 2 orange extension cord wires poking out, these are Jay extras, and not a usual inverter setup. They are NOT using power from the inverter, they merely are sitting in the housing of the inverter for neatness, to provide shore power to BYPASS the inverter when we have shore power.

WHY AN INVERTER? Well, I am quite prepared to enjoy the outdoors, as long as I have hot tea. So, I need a kettle. those 12 volt kettles take 25 minutes to boil, that's about 20 minutes too long for those around me to deal with my caffeine withdrawal.

WHAT IS AN INVERTER? it inverts electricity. it "converts" the 12 volt power your car battery produces, and inverts it into the same type of power as in your house. Other words meaning the same thing: house power is AC - Alternating Current, making 110 volt power; battery power is 6 volts via DC - Direct Current. Now, interesting idea: your laptop pc / DVD / TV is probably 12 volt, those big electrical boxes on your laptop pc power cord are converting the AC 110 household power into DC 6 volt which your pc runs on, so when you plug your laptop into the inverter, you are converting and inverting the same power over and over...hmm....so just buy a 12 volt DVD / TV for the deli, not a household plug in one.

MICROWAVE: also, I need warm comfort food, hence the microwave. Get the lowest power you can, ideally 550 watts, max 750 watts if using a 1000 watt inverter, as the 750 refers to output, not the HUGE power it is using. Also, a microwave with no LCD display is better (for expert reason: the LCD display wants true sine wave, we only run modified sine wave on cheap inverter). You can try to microwave with just the inverter on (no outside "shore power", no engine running). After about 15 seconds the inverter will whine (high pitched EEEEE noise), and you will hear the microwave roundabout slow down, the inside light dims, and generally you get the hunch that you should hop over the centre console and turn on the engine, just till you finish microwave or kettle.

ELECTRIC BLANKET: why not? Usually are about 100 watts (ie the same power consumption as a 100 watt light bulb). wow. I put a small electric blanket into the sleeping bag. Don't leave on for more than a couple hours if the engine isnt running, don't want to drain your battery.

BATTERY: we use a single 27 series battery, One 27 is usually more cold cranking capacity (the only thing you really care about is that, cuz that's what you need to start a cold delica engine) than 2 tiny 24 series batteries. And even if you have 2 batteries, you still drain both AT THE SAME TIME, so your 2 battery setup will be just as dead as a one battery set up. (Except if you installed a battery isolator to allow you to flip a switch to say do not take any power from second battery, yes you would know if you have one, it's a great big switch about the size of a fist, and costs $200.00 and you would be an electrical whiz to know how to install it, and no they don't come with the winter package or any other delica myths. Also, re delica myths, all delii are 12 volt, not 24 volt, whether you have 1 or 2 or 5 batteries, One thing we have done, which I recommend to everyone, we have a built in battery charger (marine brand Guest) installed in our battery area, since charging system usually doesnt charge a battery more than 80% (safety factor), so we top up by plugging in at night in cold weather.

PORTABLE HEATER: mini household oil heater, about 1 foot high, 500 watts, plugs into the
"Shore Power", sucks too much power to use with the inverter except while driving (warm deli while off road camping). But keeps the frost and snow off the deli, no scraping windows for me before going to work. And it sits next to the engine hump, to left of inverter, strapped to the U shelf, so also keeps the engine wall area warm at night.

HOT SHOWER: my next project. I have a dream ... and a plan, just need to blackmail Jay to build it.

Fingers tired typing, lets have a deli meat-up, easier to see than explain. Cheers, Christine.

[Green1]

ok, here are the pics from your album, looks good, I'm not sure I understand how that u-shaped bracket is constructed, or what all the wires in there are for, but it's certainly giving me some ideas...



My ideal setup is still more like what MysteryMachine did with his (he mounted the inverter in an electrical box under his vehicle) but I'm not sure I could find space without removing the spare tire (which he did) and I don't know that I want to move that... also an inverter that far from the batteries would require even heavier gauge wire to not loose too much on an inverter that size...

[after oil]

great posts guys. christine: my instructions for posting photos didnt work for ya?
that u shaped container is not what i was imagining, so im glad to finally see a photo. ill look around for something similiar. i was thinking maybe cement board, but polypro isnt brittle like cement board, so hopefully ill find something...
i used 2 gauge wire, 5 feet long, like the instructions say. but the fuse is in the air intake area under the driver seat. theres no room in my battery area because its filled with.. batteries.

ill be powering a small kettle, better than to burn propane to heat water. ill be powering a pump and a centrifuge too. and a laptop. all my music will be on the laptop, played through the stereo system.

[BCDelica]

Great information Christine!

But to highjack this thread slightly;

Nice boat and the one of the best Delica color schemes around, cool. Love the front awning/tent cover on the Whaler; picture makes me want to go boating.



Best Regards,
Kevin

[JMK]

I used a Xantrex 1750W Inverter and a 175A fuse I found at Canadian Tire. After 9 months the fuse has not blown so far. I've noticed if you are running the inverter, and you start the engine, the inverter's error light (faulty circuit light?) will come on and you need to turn the inverter on and off again.

One thing I've noticed now regarding Xantrex products. Besides the inverter, I also have a 12V Automotive Charger of theirs. On both of them the LED (or is it LCD?) displays are so faded out and dim that you can only read them at night. THis seems to me like more than co-incidence, leading me to believe Xantrex is using substandard display panels in these products. Chances are, you may end up with the same problem.