Starting Problems when cold (more of them)

[yimra]

Hey everyone, my girlfriend and I just got a delica L300 at the beginning of summer and now the temperatures are definitely beginning to cool off which is starting to become a problem. I have dug through posts on here but so far I am not any closer to figuring out what is going on.

We have been having problems getting the van to turn over when it is cold (especially in the mornings). The van has a manual glow plug circuit wired in (from before we got it). The current starting procedure has been to set the throttle lock/choke, cycle the glow plugs once for ~10s, and then a second 10s (i have tried a shorter duration but then it cranks for a while). Immediately on releasing the switch for the glow plugs I am turning the key. If the plugs are run for this length of time the van will "fire" and then proceed to die. Going through this process a second or third time has got the van going every time but this is only at most at -2 and we are hoping to use it in the winter at far colder temperatures. Once it finally starts and continues running we are getting a dark (grey?) cloud of smoke out of the back.

I can't pretend to be very knowledgeable with vehicles so my problem solving skills have been limited. First thought was that it was the battery so I took the vehicle to polar batteries. They test it under load starting and also checked the alternator which I was told is working properly. I believe that the glow plugs are working (based on the ability to start at all when using the switch) and supposedly they were replaced before we got the vehicle (they are all green topped plugs). The manual switch that was in the vehicle when we got it did not have a fuse in it and short circuited, burning out so we had it replaced (could it have damaged the plugs?). When we got the van we had the delica tune done down at CVI so the injectors should be clean at the very least. I know that the oil in the vehicle right now is a bit heavy for the temperatures, long story short it is a straight w30, which will be getting changed very soon. Hoping to put in a synthetic 5W30

I dont really know what else to check or to look at. I am planning on trying to take the van in to CVI for Marty to take a look at before we head down to the states for a few months!! SO it would be nice to acquire a smooth start before leaving.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this and for any thoughts you guys can provide.

Cheers

[jessef]

I'd advise having Mardy or Edwin look at it.

If it runs great when warmed up, then the most likely culprits are your glowplugs, ecu, battery.

If your battery is up to spec (these diesels pull a LOT of amps when cranking over compared to a conventional gas engine) then troubleshoot your glow plugs individually/rail and ecu.

[Firesong]

Get that oil changed.
Makes a difference as well.
Yes, do it now ;)

Do you have a block heater for the colder weather?
J

[Golf Cart]

Yimra,

I'd take Jesse's advice, only in the reverse order.

Check the glo-plugs - you will need to take off the buss bar ( rail) so you can test the plugs individually. A simple test light hooked up to the Positive side of the battery. touch the end of the glo-plug......if it lights , its good....if not, it needs replacing.

Since you have a glo-plug bypass , it sounds like the ECU was hooped when the previous owner had it. For $100, Butch at CVI will Re & Re your ECU so it works again. Modifications work fine , but like anything , if you don't fully understand the application, it could end up being more of a pain than just getting the original problem fixed.

All in all , the Delica is a great vehicle.

Good Luck

[Corax]

Not sure where you are from but I live in Alberta so we had to deal with this issue. This is how I've been able to get my van running with temps down to -30:

- Delica tune @ CVI
- Fuel conditioner with cetane boost. The one that Mardy recommends has worked best but I can't find it in Alberta, can't remember the name of it. Use as much as is indicated on the container, don't skimp.
- Inline rad hose heater. Easier to install than a block heater and works great. You won't start the thing at very cold temps without this (or a block heater).
- New battery with lots of cranking power
- Manual glow plug switch (but don't disconnect the regular ECU glow plug set up)
- Synthetic 5w40 oil

A couple of things to keep in mind:

- I have started it down to almost -20 without being plugged in. Any colder than that and you're probably not going to get it going unless it's been running in the previous 6-8 hours.
- Plugging it in whenever the forecast is colder than -10 is probably a good idea, easier on the vehicle.
- DO NOT run the glow plugs for as long as you have been. You will burn them out. You may have done so already and that could be aggravating the situation.

This is my starting procedure:

- Best to plug it in for 6 or more hours before you want to drive it if it is colder than -10. If it is colder than -15 or so this is probably essential.
- Make sure the stereo, blower fan etc are off to make it easier on the battery
- Turn ignition switch to on, wait for automatic glow plugs to click on and off (7 seconds in my vehicle). If it is colder than -10 and it has not been plugged in press the manual glow plug switch for another 3 seconds ONLY. If it is colder than -15 use the manual switch for 3 seconds even if it has been plugged in.
- As soon as you let go of the manual glow plug switch, fuel pedal all the way down to the floor (don't pump) and crank the engine.
- If it has been plugged in and it is not too cold mine starts right off. If it has not been plugged in or is very cold then it may not catch. Stop cranking after a few seconds, wait 10 seconds, cycle the automatic and manual glow plug routine again, fuel peddle down, crank.

The colder it is the more times you have to go through this routine. Don't run the glow plugs more than 10 seconds at time or you will be paying for new glow plugs sooner or later, guaranteed. If it is much colder than -30 I usually don't even try to start it, or at least have it plugged in or running 24/7 if I absolutely need to get someplace.

It will run rough at first and you have to nurse it. Set the throttle lock to a bit of a higher rev and let him warm up for awhile until he runs more smoothly. After 2 minutes or so drive away very slowly, this seems to be the best way to warm the engine up.

Much to the dismay of the neighbours you will be blowing smoke during start up and during your initial putter down the street, there does not seem to be any way around this.

An emergency back up I have is a small camping stove (MSR Dragonfly) that I can light up and put under the skid plate to heat up the block if I get stuck at a trailhead at frigid temps and absolutely need to start it. An old trick from growing up on the prairies. Haven't had to use this technique on the Deli but have done it on other vehicles. I've only lit one car on fire doing this (I was unaware that it had a plastic skid plate). But that car did start after we put the fire out...

[DelicaMark]

Running 12V through the 6.2V glow plugs for long periods of time will burn them out (assuming that they have not been replaced with 12V ones. If you are doing a 10s and then another 10s that could be the case of too much 12V running through the 6.2V plugs. Plus you never know what was done to the glow plugs before this. They might all be toast.

Saying that, if everything is working correctly then you should not need to have a manual switch at all. And unless you live in a very cold place these vans will start up in -5C to -10C conditions without much effort...no block heater required and no 20s of glow plug use at 12V.

I would figure out two things. Why is there a manual switch? Are the glow plugs toast? Once these have been sorted out then you can move on to other possibilites if needed. If you are in the lower mainland and don't want to figure it out yourself take it to CVI. If you are on the island then CoombsCountryAutos is a good bet.

Hope this helps.

P.S. - My resume for this is, I spent a full ski season trying to figure out why my van wouldn't start in the overnight temperatures of Mt. Washington when my brother-in-laws van that was parked right beside mine would. I had to crank mine over for about 5-10 minutes to get it to go.

[mararmeisto]

It definitely sounds like your glow plugs are dead, and depending on how the manual glow plug mod was installed you may be cooking them further each time you switch that switch.

Recommend the following:
-get the proper glow plugs (don't bother trying to get creative, just get the Mitsubishi ones)
-clean up the bus bar that connects all the glow plugs together (poor conductivity will apply more voltage to some glow plugs and not others, making a difference in their performance)
-get your ECU fixed - it does what you're trying to do with that manual switch (it's probably broke which is why there is a manual switch)
-make sure your battery or batteries is/are good (these vans WILL compression start after about 15 or 20 seconds with no help from the glow plugs, but only if your battery is up to it)

Finally, add your location to your profile so we can help direct you to where you can get some mechanical help (should you require it). No point us telling you to go to CVI in the Lower Mainland if you live in Nunavut or Labrador. <grin>

[loki]

careful with over cooking plugs as the ends can break off and fall into your cylinder

[marsgal42]

Even when everything is right, Delicas can be cantankerous to start in cold weather. Your can't mess around with your batteries, your glow plugs have to be good, you have to have the right oil, and you have to be persistent with the starter.

Starting Gumdrop at -15 in the Cariboo last weekend was entertaining. At times it reminded me of starting our old D4 Cat, back in my teens. It had a starting engine, a little two cylinder job that you pulled a rope to start.

...laura

[yimra]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am located in the lower mainland and have booked to get it in to Butch in about a weeks time. We do have a block heater on the vehicle and for the really cold winters days/nights in the rockies may look to get a generator for it to plug into if things get really nasty. It will be going for the oil change for something more appropriate will get the ecu checked/refurbished/replaced and will get the glow plugs checked. If they both appear to be fine I suppose back the battery. Pardoning my ignorance, I did see a post (though I doubt I could find it now) about how to check glow plugs, and there was a caveat not to attach them directly to the positive terminal of the battery because they are 6.5v as opposed to the 12v. If this is the case, what would be a different way to test them. hmm... though I guess that is what the manual switch is doing anyways?

[loki]

though I guess that is what the manual switch is doing anyways?

depends on how the switch is wired. If you hear a click from under the drivers seat when you turn it on and another when you turn it off then it is wired properly and just activating the relay that powers the glow plugs in the stock setup, if no clicks then it is probably wired straight to the battery (not good unless only very short bursts)

[wetcoast]

What about block heater? Electric Battery Blanket? Thanks.

[yimra]

Well no clicks and looking at it it seems like its pretty much a simple circuit encompassing the battery, switch, fuse, and glow plug bar. I will get it looked at but I guess then it would need to have the ECU rehooked up (and repaired) and probably the glow plugs replaced if they have been cooked by the extra voltage?

[loki]

Well no clicks and looking at it it seems like its pretty much a simple circuit encompassing the battery, switch, fuse, and glow plug bar. I will get it looked at but I guess then it would need to have the ECU rehooked up (and repaired) and probably the glow plugs replaced if they have been cooked by the extra voltage?

you could just move the wiring that comes from the switch and goes to the plugs and wire it to the in of the glow plug relay. There is a diagram on the wiki that you should look at as there are a couple configurations and 3 relays, 2 for the glow plugs (one goes to a voltage drop resistor, the other straight to the plugs) and one for the starter.

[yimra]

A little update on our attempt to solve the problems. We took the van in to Marty about a week ago and he found that the glow plugs were dead and, yes, each time they were getting cooked more and more. So... he rewired the circuit, replaced the plugs and temperature sensor and found the ecu wasn't working. We tried a different ecu and it worked for a couple of starts and then it broke that ecu. Since then, both were sent off to be repaired on the off chance that it was the ecu's themselves that were having problems. Once repaired though, the same problem is there. Marty has checked the circuit and things seem fine but the problem isnt going anywhere. What would be the next place to look?