Let's Talk In Knots!

[FalcoColumbarius]

BTW, If you needed to use rope for any "live" loads, never use a bowline. Bowlines are an easy convenient knot for lots of uses but not when safety is an issue; use a figure 8.

john

Really? My friends from the maritime industry recommend the bowline as the safest knot. My brother would practice for hours tying the bowline around himself as an emergency measure, or for towing because it is known as the knot that will not let go.

Falco.

[jwfchase]

Really? My friends from the maritime industry recommend the bowline as the safest knot. My brother would practice for hours tying the bowline around himself as an emergency measure, or for towing because it is known as the knot that will not let go.

Falco.

Oh boy, here goes the topic again ...

A figure "8" knot and a bowline have roughly the same strength as an anchoring knot on a static load. However, on a moving load (moving side to side, tensioning/untensioning) the bowline has a tendency to work itself loose, a backup overhand stopper knot will prevent most of the loosening, but a properly tied and dressed fig8 knot is much better on that type of load anyhow.

And pure speculation here, but I'd bet the maritime industry, being a long one steeped in history, hangs on to tradition (tried-and true!) even more than the rescue and mountaineering industries do.

[FalcoColumbarius]

Cool. Thanks JW for qualifying that. Perhaps the tried and true aspect has something to do with it. The emergency measure scenario I was mentioning was in the event if you were washed overboard in a storm and you were fortunate in having a rope thrown within your reach then the bowline would be a "fast & sure" knot to tie around yourself ~ so perhaps that falls under temporary convenience. Mararmeisto is RCN ~ I wonder what light he might have on this issue...

Falco.

[Green1]

From a maritime perspective the bowline has always been the knot of choice for tying oneself to anything, in addition to being quick and convenient, it has the added bonus of being able to be tied around oneself one handed while the other hand holds the line so that you don't drift away!
When taking any sailing training the bowline is probably the one knot above all others that gets drilled in to your head. Though I note that it was also emphasized a lot in my SAR training (though I never did get involved with the rope team)

As for the "strongest" knot, yes, that would be the figure 8, however strength alone isn't everything.

[Firesong]

Bowline is great for a safe knot while under tension. The reason it's so nice
is that it is easy to untie even after a ton of weight has been applied
to it over time. It can work free if given slack and movement.
The fact you can use it to belay, abseil etc is nice too, hence
some quick military applications.

For a knot that doesn't free up the figure 8 is great, and it doesn't
lose as much strength through the knot as any of the others.
Mind you, after a while of constant tension and heavy weight
it can be a real PIA to untie. But for mountaineering you don't
usually have it tied for that long.

Everyone is right ...'Yaa, go us'

FS

[FalcoColumbarius]

Hahahahahahahahaha...............

[ShaneA]

Being a sailor I feel obliged to chime in regarding the bowline.

In my 25+ years of sailing experience I have yet to see a bowline work free. Bowlines are commonly used for attaching sheets (ropes) to sails. There are periods of slack (light wind or when tacking), movement while tacking and plenty of tension under load. Also the unloaded sheet is left slack for possibly hours at a time.

I personally have experienced an emergency man overboard in 30+ knots of wind where the jib was left flapping in the wind for 5 plus minutes and the bowlines holding the sheets to the jib were just as secure after the incident as before.

As for strength, I can't say compared to other knots, but I know these sails are exerting hundreds to thousands of pounds of force on the sheets. Just try to pulling in a 600 square foot genoa in over 10 knots of wind without the use of a winch.

Shane

[Green1]

As for strength, I can't say compared to other knots, but I know these sails are exerting hundreds to thousands of pounds of force on the sheets. Just try to pulling in a 600 square foot genoa in over 10 knots of wind without the use of a winch.

being a sailor myself I must agree with you about the bowlines, however one quick note about strength, we're not talking "will come out when pulled on hard" the strength refers to how much the line is weakened by the addition of the knot, the tighter the turns, the more the knot weakens the line, and the more likely the line is to break. This isn't a problem in your sailing situation because the lines themselves are overengineered enough to handle it, however all things being equal, a figure 8 weakens lines less than almost any other knot.

[FalcoColumbarius]

Wait a moment, the turns on a figure eight are just as tight as on a bowline...... Should I be splitting this thread and starting another one on knots?

Falco.

[Green1]

Wait a moment, the turns on a figure eight are just as tight as on a bowline...... Should I be splitting this thread and starting another one on knots?

I may have oversimplified, but basically the figure 8 is considered to weaken the line less than almost any other knot, that's not to say that you'll likely ever notice, but that is the theory behind it... one of our SAR rope guys may be able to explain it better (Erebus... you around???)

[Jsq]

For what it's worth a bowline and figure of eight are meant to serve different purposes so it's not necessarily useful to consider one better than the other. As a fisherman, sailor and emergency rescue worker I've used both quite often. Under extreme loading I'll take a bowline anyday, all things considered. A properly tied bowline will not come apart with "live" loading and even under extreme loading it can be untied without sacrificing your rope/line/sheet. Having said that it should also be pointed out that it depends on the material you are using as to what knot is best. A bowline tied in webbing is an ugly duckling and miserable to work with but a figure of eight can be made quite nicely. Just my two cents!!

[konadog]

In climbing and caving we use figure 8's - never bowlines.

[jwfchase]

Ditto (almost) for industrial and outdoor rope rescue and confined space-- all figure 8 family of knots. For awhile they stopped teaching us the bowline for life safety applications. Now we are allowed to use it to anchor a rope around an object but it must have a backup overhand safety tied at the end:

bowline.gif (7.13 KiB) Viewed 4506 times

As you can see in the picture, the running end terminates in the middle of the loop (drawing "b"). Another disadvantage of the bowline is that if you tie it incorrectly with the running end terminating on the ouside (make the bunny go the wrong way around the tree ) it looks very very close to being correct. Kenrmantle rope under load when tied this way, WILL come apart in fairly short order. The figure 8 is very easy to visually inspect once it has been dressed, it either looks right, or it's tied wrong...

[FalcoColumbarius]

AAaaahhhhhh..... I see what's happening ~ You are using the bunny to go around the tree. No wonder! I NEVER use the bunny. Bunnies are dangerous and unpredictable. I always use the snake to go around the tree, in fact I prefer the serpent.

Falco.

[jwfchase]

Actually I use another method altogether, but for simplicity of illustration's sake...