29hr road trip

[Firesong]

Or so...
Had to travel from Saskatoon to (near) Athabasca to pick up my girls
for the holidays. Van started at 5ishpm on saturday night. My plan was to
go for a while keep it topped up with fuel and sleep in it. Had my military
sleeping bags and such.

And yes, I skirted the rules for fueling up. I would get off the highway and not
feel like cooling down, then turning it off so I went to the far pumps, and pumped
away.

I've slept in it over night keeping it running. Just forgotten that I don't need to
be bundled up quite so much. Ended up sleeping most on top of my sleeping
bag. Quite warm indeed. Had the idle set to 1000 rpm. I figure I used roughly
6$ of diesel idling from 10pm to 7am.

I learned a good lesson about these motors that I need to remind myself about
once a year. Just cause you can push them, (and mine loves the cold more than
anything.. lots of power) doesn't mean your fuel mileage is going to love it.
I don't mean crazy push but a head wind and zipping along doesn't make for
a good relationship with fuel/pocketbook. The temp outside was around -18 to -20 celcius.

Picked up the munchkins and had us home last night at 9:30 pm ish.
Van didn't get turned off once and didn't use a drop of oil during the trip. Well, nothing
I could detect on the stick.

Had to share the trip, nothing fancy but fun all the same. Don't know how many hours
of AC/DC I listened to combined afterwards with some Energy Trance.. :)

Firesong

[jaggedfish]

HOLY! I nominate Firesong for the "Hard Ass" award. That trip is worthy of the word "epic".

As far as skirting the rules on re-fueling goes, you should be able to shut down without any issue at all for the brief time it takes to fill. Was there a real reason for that or just comfort?

Evidently you are a sound sleeper.

[deli1733]

Well that sounds awsome, nothing like driving by yourself at night... dont know if id be able to sleep with the engine on tho.

[Firesong]

The fueling thing was so I wouldn't have to cool off the turbo before refueling.
Get in off the highway and... wait.. no I didn't think I wanted to.
:)
The rumble of the motor is pretty relaxing.
Earplugs are handy too for traffic.

My temporary bed setup was super comfy.
I was set up for cold weather camping but I didn't want to.
It's too cold in the morning to get out of bed that way.

:)
FS

[FalcoColumbarius]

You don't need to cool the turbo down... you need to spool the turbo down, which typically takes 30 seconds. When you get off the highway your turbo is spinning super fast and takes half a minute to get back down to the idle speed. The reason you want to time the turbo out is because when you shut the engine off ~ the oil stops pumping, which means the turbo is no longer getting oil. If the turbo is spinning at idle speed then it stops fast when the engine stops. If the turbo is spinning at highway speeds then it takes longer for the turbo to spool down and it's better to do so with oil than without oil. So wait thirty seconds at idle before rolling up to the pump. Having said all that, diesels being compression orientated, I don't think you risk an explosion if you fuel diesels with the engine running, not like spark ignition gassers. Cool trip Fire Song, you make us proud.

Falco.

[Shaun Van Ramen]

Fueling and a note of interest:

In Japan, engines are left running when refueling. No cel-phone use near the pumps and, if you turn off the engine like I did once, Don't start it until they are finished filling. I'm told a running engine isn't an issue, it is the process of starting that presents the hazard.

[FalcoColumbarius]

I don't think it has anything to do with whether the engine is spark ignition or compression ignition as in both cases we are talking about an "internal combustion engine". In the case of gasoline engines there is the distributor more likely I think that the danger in a running engine is the alternator, which is not sealed, basically an electric motor that can generate sparks and is low to the ground where heavy gasses tend to spill out. This would be one beauty with fuelling up with oil instead of solvent ~ a spark is not likely to ignite an oil where it would much more likely ignite a solvent. I have been searching the internet, looking for the definitive answer and apparently at best I can only turn up hearsay. I think I'm going to stroll down to the local fire brigade and ask them and report back later.
So in the meantime, here's two videos involving gasoline instead:





Falco.

[BV1]

Just to add to this, the reason to cool down your turbo or the reason for a turbo timer, is not so much do with the turbine speed but rather the temperature of the turbo.

The turbine speeds are tremendous, up to 200,000 RPM depending on the turbo type, but the weight of the turbine is very minimal so its spins down and up very quickly, this is to minimze turbo lag.

It takes an enormous amount of energy to compress air, and there is not nearly enough momentum in the turbine to continue to compress air and spin at high speeds after the energy source has been removed (exhaust pressure). In other words the turbo spins down very quickly. Think of a bot pof boiling water, when it is removed from the element the temperature is still 99.9C but the boiling stops near instantly. Energy in must = energy out.

Turbos work the same way, when the exhaust force is removed, the turbo spins down near instantly (within a few seconds), the Blow Off Valve (BOV) takes care of any excess pressure, and it only sounds for less then a second or two after letting off the throttle, so that gives you an idea of the turbine speed changes.

The real reason to cool down the turbo is mainly to do with oil coking. The turbo is both lubricated and cooled by the oil flow through it. If the oil flow should stop suddenly while the turbo is hot, the oil that is left in the turbo will continue to heat up and non-synthetic oils will start to harden and coke inside the internal turbo passaes. This happens well below temperatures present in the turbo after it has been pushed or worked hard. Synthetic oils have less issue with this.

The idea is to idle the turbo for 2 minutes to allow the turbo to cool down physically by both the oil and coolant flowing through it (if applicable), so that when the oil flow is stopped, coking is prevented.

In -20C however, your oil will not coke to the turbo so your safe, cooler air is denser air, so it removes heat much more affectively then warmer air. Warm air will warm you up slowly, but cold air will cool you off instantly. Think Windchill. So even though the temperature is only 50C colder then in summer, the turbo internals are effectively running maybe 100C cooler simply due to the air moving around in the engine bay cooling off the housings, exhaust piping etc.

Lastly, even if its warm out, if the engine has not been pushed recently (in the last 5-10 minutes) by running at full boost for extended periods of time (towing, hard accelleration etc), then the turbo timer is again not neccessary as the temperatures are not high enough to cause oil coking.

Hope that helps with future refueling situations :)

Steve

[FalcoColumbarius]

Well, I went down to the fire brigade and the guy I got didn't seem to know exactly why it's dangerous to fuel with the engine running. I did start researching fuelling station explosions but the ones I saw were about gasoline. One fire was started when a guy was filling his jerry cans in the box of his pick-up and the fire was started with static electricity, which I guess is why they tell you to fuel your jerry can on the ground. I gave the fireman my email addy..... I think I will go down there again and ask someone else.

When I get off a highway and stop (with the engine still running) I can hear my turbo whistling down for as long as twenty seconds. Myself, I am a painter and an armchair mechanic. I do have two mates whom are mechanics and one who is a retired turbo tech out of the forces who told me it was about keeping the oil running for around thirty seconds longer as the turbo "spools down" to idle speed. This I understand is really only when getting off the highway at speed but if you drive slowly through ~ say a neighbourhood for five minutes then they said that there's not much point to it, then.

Falco.

[FalcoColumbarius]

Update:

I went back down to the fire brigade and this time I talked to the fire chief. Although there is a remote possibility of a spark from the alternator as it's lower to the ground and gasoline vapours are heavier than air ~ the primary reason for switching the engine off at a fuelling station is a practical one: So the vehicle doesn't run away; create excess exhaust; children in the vehicle, car jacking, &c..

Fuelling jerry cans must be done on the ground and not on the vehicle because the vehicle is insulated from the ground by four rubber tyres and if you are standing on the ground and your synthetic jacket or wool garment, for instance, rubs against the vehicle it can create a static charge that quite often has ignited gasoline:



Cel phones? There are a surprising number of youtube vids showing people burning because they answered their cel whilst fuelling with gasoline... this isn't one of them but it demonstrates how it occurs:



All of the above is regarding gasoline, which is a solvent and solvents emit vapours at an alarmingly fast rate, which is why it is so volatile. Diesel on the other hand is an oil and it emits vapours much slower.

Falco.

[tonydca]

Flammable vs. combustible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_poin ... ash_points