Block heater on a battery pack?

[foxycanuck]

Wondering in a pinch on ski days if having a 600W inverter on one of those eliminator battery packs (22ah, with a 12V, 15A plug on it) will run the block heater for a little bit (like 20 - 30 minutes) if the temperature drops unexpectedly (I'm not skiing much when it's less than -15), or is that the sort of thing I'd need a deep cycle battery for?

[TardisDeli]

HI FC, be aware, most of those battery jump packs wont start a diesel Delica. Jay tested to prove that delica L300 need 275 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) to start a Delica (that was inside a heated garage in normal weather). So in the freezing cold with thickened oil and fuel might take more CCA. Need to read the specs very carefully, just the amps they advertise ONLY refers to usable amps for plugging in little electronics like a campsite music boombox etc. We don't know what an L400 takes to start, easily could be more CCA as bigger engine plus heaps more electronics and brain boxes.

You mention running an inverter to power your block heater. I see what you're trying to do, but it is a bit complex. Need to verify your block heater demand for watts (and whether it has a peak load to start). Usually they also need 15 amps, ie full household power. Then do your Ohm's Law math to calculate actual load. Also, most inverters are modified sine wave, not true sine wave, thus some electronics won't work on some as they need a full sine wave of power, especially if it is anything with a digital readout or a temperature sensor. Also, your 600 watt inverter is probably only 600 for a very short timed peak load, not a continuous run (which might only be 400 watts continuous). So, you might blow the fuse in something. Jay's best guess it that IF it does work, it wont give power for very long.

You mention deep cycle battery. Do u mean a totally isolated second battery that you isolate with a switch, to use as a backup battery for starting? Batteries generally are classed as deep cycle or starter (starter gives more oomph quickly for starting, versus deep cycle gives slower oomph over a longer time without damaging the battery -- if a battery is discharged too much it can not get recharged again).

In general, thinking about the eliminator pack versus a car battery, consider that I can't lift physically my starting battery, yet I can lift easily the eliminator pack with one hand. Also, any wires you run from your battery to another thing (such as my 1000 watt inverter) needs to be huge or else it restricts electrical flow, my wire from battery to inverter is called two guage, its about as thick as my baby finger.

Battery choice and wiring is very complicated, the wrong choice in the whole circle will restrict the flow of the whole electrical picture (like squishing a garden hose restricts water).

In calgary, you should contact Erebus (Fred, owns L300) or Green1 (Roger, owns L400), for their advice on what they chose and why. They do understand this stuff.

Cheers, Christine.

[jaggedfish]

I am 'currently' (sorry... electrical reference ) consulting with my brother on a setup for powering a block heater for 1 to 3 hours to give the engine enough pre-heat to start when the temps drop significantly. He has built a business around batteries and charging systems for personal and commercial applications and beyond. So far, it's looking like a two-bank gel-cell setup will get you through those times but we haven't finalized that yet. The big thing will be the charging system... likely will have to plug into shore power to charge after high demand use like running a 400W heater - alternator will just not handle that. Most good inverters should have some protection on them also to shut off the power before damaging the batteries beyond re-charging. A two-bank system will also have plenty of power for your camping needs if you like to camp. Also looking at a solar component to this as well. Can update as we progress.

Cheers!
Ian

[lopar]

I took a quick peek on a dodge truck sight......... they say about 6A for 700W (or 9A for 1000W) for a typical block heater and a 15A circuit can "usually" handle two of them. Absolutely will work, more a question of for how long....... should be some specs on your battery pack with current draw vs. time to guestimate how long it may run.

Also, most inverters are modified sine wave, not true sine wave, thus some electronics won't work on some as they need a full sine wave of power, especially if it is anything with a digital readout or a temperature sensor.

Heaters never care what type of power they get, clean or dirty, they just eat up current and power and put out heat. Few "consumer electronics" care about a clean power source either, the first thing most electronics do is convert AC to DC, not too many AC circuits out there, some just manipulate AC info: some repeaters and amplifiers, but the circuits themselves are still DC. Most electronics just require a range of acceptable power that will be sufficient without frying wires or popping fuses/breakers etc. As long as the wave is not "TOO" junky as to create current "gaps".

Let us know how long it lasts, good thought. Also, if possible, have the battery pack indoors before use for better performance (more for starting, will warm up as block heater draws current).

[snelson]

Batteries seem like a pain in the arse to me for using as a block heater, maybe consider buying a smaller generator from sears or crappy tire-they seem to go on sale frequently.

[foxycanuck]

I was thinking about a genny as well, but it's also one more machine that can be frozen at the end of the day...

The battery pack I have now can spit out 700 CCA, and has 2 12V plugs on 15A fuses, and the block heater takes 400W. The 600W inverter I'm looking at can peak up to 1200, and continuous for 480W, so it should handle the block heater.

I'm looking at a deep cycle battery just because the booster pack is 22ah and really more for low power accessories and jump starting. The deep cycle I'm looking at is a little over 100 ah, and so it should run quite a bit longer than the booster pack. Still not sure about run time though.

I wouldn't wire it into the car, I'd use it as a backup (ie pull out the inverter, hook it up to the battery, plug in the block heater on a timer and ski away.

What's the smallest generator floating around out there?

[FredVenne]

Generator is the way to go for us. We have a Honda 1000W (pricy, about 1100$, but extremely reliable) and we run the block heater, an oil pan heater, batterie warmer and we charge the batteries, through our hookup of our camper, all at the same time. It’s a little bit bigger then a 10L jerrycan.

Fred

[BV1]

I think at the end of the day the battery pack in question does not have enough juice.

If you think about the mass of the block, and the amount of temperature you want to raise it (10C?), and do the math, I think you will find that the energy required is greater then in those battery packs. Better then to save the battery pack for extra cranking juice to help ignite the diesel with the little extra cranking RPM it could provide.

If you used a heavy duty automotive battery something with 70 AH at least, you could theoretically draw ~840 total watts (70x12v) from the battery assuming 100% efficiency. Those inverters are typically only 70% efficient at best. So you may be able to get 588 Watts or about 50 minutes (say 45 minutes to be safe) of power out of a 700W block heater using a fully charged 70 AH automotive battery. You may find though that in 45 minutes the temperature difference supplied by the block heater is not large enough, being a heavy iron block diesel.

If you do go ahead, let us know how it works out, its possible to build something nice (self charging etc) if you sink the time and money into it.

Steve

[foxycanuck]

For the cost of a couple deep cycle marine batteries in the 120 Ah range, plus a decent inverter and charger, it made more sense to go with a remote starter with a cold start timer. Less hassle, and fewer longevity issues as well. We'll see how that goes this winter. If we really need the extra heating on top of that I think a generator will make more sense in the long run... just need to wait for a little one to go on sale sometime.

[jelbon]

Another option is a webasco or epar type coolant heater. They burn diesel and heat up the coolant in the engine.
I'm not sure if they have a pump that circulates the coolant through the system.
In any case, they are very small (fit in the engine area easily) and would keep the block toasty warm.

[fexlboi]

Another option is a webasco or epar type coolant heater. They burn diesel and heat up the coolant in the engine.
I'm not sure if they have a pump that circulates the coolant through the system.
In any case, they are very small (fit in the engine area easily) and would keep the block toasty warm.

They do have a pump built in to circulate the coolant.
I can't see a way to fit these units in the engine bay. At least not in a l300. Also they should be mounted on the low side of the coolant circuit, so the only place I figured is anywhere under the body. Our Espar heater will be where the rear AC is located.

[john n]

http://vancouver.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehic ... Z254711469
Here's one at a good price (coolant heater)

[naterade]

Have you even decided that this is completely necessary??

Here in Calgary we've just come out of a -20 and colder deep freeze that lasted several weeks.

Not once did I have an issue with starting my Deli, it even spent the night in -30 up in Edmonton, without being plugged in, and fired up at 7:00 am without much issue at all.

Just make sure you have a healthy, high amp battery, and you should be a-ok


My 2 cents...