L300 vs. L400

[Nomis]

As for the frame just take a look at how the frame's front end is built on a 400 vs the 300... You'll see it.

Actually I don't, they're both unibody vehicles, the frame doesn't look any "better" or "worse" on either one to me.

Can anyone clear up this frame issue?
I thought that only the L400 is unibody?
doesn't that make it worse for off-road?

So how are you L400 owners liking it for the off road travel etc?

[FalcoColumbarius]

Both the L300 & L400 are monocoque or uni-body as you put it. What that means is the structural integrity is made up from the whole fabrication rather than just the platform it's built on. This style of building was originally used in aircraft design but has since been employed in other applications. It is a very strong design. Unlike the older style truss & non load bearing coachwork that would make up a motor vehicle, the monocoque structure takes stress as a whole. It gives like a willow tree in a storm.

I drive an L300 and I love the displacement of the vehicle. I find the weight is more centred with the mid engine configuration. I find this makes cruising forest mains very convenient as the vehicle is very responsive to my commands. I also particularly like the torsion bar front suspension of the L300. Amongst other features the braking is very present and from my experiences I find the L300 stops much faster than other vehicles I have driven of a similar weight class.

I have never driven an L400 but I know there are people who swear by them. Myself, I prefer the P25W (L300 low roof) for it's ability to get into small places and get back out again. Nothing like pushing through some boughs to the view of a couple of drop jaw quad riders in the middle of nowhere !

Falco.

[Green1]

I have yet to do much offroading with the L400, however I did some with the L300 and have driven the L400 for a while now and on some lousy roads.

pros:
L300
- shorter length makes for more manoeuvrability, gets in to and out of tighter turns and can turn around in smaller spaces
- better departure angle
- better break-over angle
- easier to judge the front of the vehicle for tricky obstacles
- solid transfer case should be stronger than the super-select lockable system in the L400 (though the super-select is supposed to be quite good)

L400 (I drive a LWB which exaggerates the differences even more, however even the SWB is longer than the L300)
- longer length makes for more stability, doesn't buck as much as the L300 over rough terrain
- centre of gravity is further back, this gives better balanced traction and is much less unnerving, and more stable, on steep descents
- better approach angle
- higher ground clearance (this is marginal, and any mods to either one could change this)
- flanges instead of auto-hubs are stronger (though I never had any issues with the auto-hubs, and this is a simple change if you want it)

[Nomis]

Hey thanks for the info Green 1 and Falco,
anyone else have something to say, please pipe in, especially L400 owners.

Green 1:
It's interesting that you noted the L400 has more ground clearance, I thought the L300 for sure did.
At least as stock goes. I know mods can change that.
please clarify. thanks.

Also do you find the breaking system any better on the L400's?
I don't like the slow heavy break of the L300's so much.

[Green1]

Green 1:
It's interesting that you noted the L400 has more ground clearance, I thought the L300 for sure did.
At least as stock goes. I know mods can change that.
please clarify. thanks.

It's difficult for me to be definitive on this one. My L400 definitely has more ground clearance than my L300 did, however my L300 was also low because of worn suspension and smaller than stock tires. However my understanding is that the stock L400 is slightly higher than the stock L300 (though as mentioned earlier, either one can be lifted if need be)

Also do you find the breaking system any better on the L400's?
I don't like the slow heavy break of the L300's so much.

I find the braking feels much stronger on the L400, on the L300 I felt like my foot had to do more of the work, whereas on the L400 it feels like the power braking works better. That said, I doubt my stopping distance is actually much better, simply because my L400 is a heavier vehicle, I just don't need to stand up on the brake pedal to make it happen. My L400 also has the ABS system, and while I'm generally not a fan of these systems, the one in the L400 is much less obnoxious than the ABS systems I've used in GM and Ford vehicles. (in both the Ford and GM there was always a very noticeable loss of stopping power when the ABS kicks in, this is not nearly as evident on the L400)

The L400 is much more "powerful" in every respect, it is easier and more comfortable to drive, that said, the L300 seemed to me like it was better thought out, little details just seemed better put together in the L300, the L400 feels more like most modern vehicles where the designers weren't actually thinking they'd be the ones using the vehicle. I'm not sure if I managed to convey what I mean here... so here's a simple example: The L400 rear bench folds flat, but they didn't think to make it have a latch point at flat, only at about 30 degrees up, and 30 degrees down... neither one is so comfortable for sleeping on. The captains chairs swivel, but not 360 degrees, only 270, this means you can face almost any way you want, but you often have to rotate the wrong way to get there.
Every feature I touched in the L300 just felt very well thought out, if I wanted something it was usually exactly where, and how, I wanted it. In the L400, despite having far more options (or "toys") they feel more "tossed in" and like not as much thought was put in to the process (time crunch in the design department?) Don't get me wrong, I love my L400, and don't for a moment regret going that route, I believe it truly is turning out to be better for my particular purpose than the L300 was, but it is not as simple as saying that one is better than the other for any one person or application, it is a very personal decision with a lot of variables to consider.

[jessef]

L400 has more ground clearance and if you're going in and through cross ditches on logging roads, the approach angle on the L400 is much better than the L300.

The L300 on the other hand has a shorter wheelbase so it's really a tie.

The breaking point may be that if you look under the L300 from the side, you'll see 1/2 the transmission/transfercase and driveline hanging down exposed. The L400, all of it is literally tucked up past the bottom line of the body hence the 'better ground clearance'.

But in reality, your ground clearance is as high as the middle lowest point on the front subframe and the rear differential = L300 and L400 are pretty much the same.

Comparing an L300 and L400 together is not fair.

It's like comparing a Toyota 4runner and a Nissan Pathfinder. While they are similar vehicles, they are different.

The L300 and L400 are completely different vehicles. They don't share much.

Body is different
Engine is different
Drivetrain is different
Driveline is different
Driveability is different
Looks are different

They both kick ass on road and off road.

They are just very different from each other.

Drive both and pick the one you like.

You'll like one better than the other right away. It's very clear to each owner I've spoken with. You'll like one more than the other.

[FalcoColumbarius]

You know, Nomis ~ both Green1 and Jfarsang make valid points. The overall clearance is typically higher on an L400. However, the shorter wheel base on the L300 compensates for that ~ it's a tie.

I reformed my rear suspension leaf springs and added one more leaf, which lifted my wheel well about an inch and an half. Then I re-indexed my torsion bars, lifting the front end to match the back. I haven't really seen much practical use to lift the van much higher for what it is that I use her for.

One day I took the other direction and I followed the road until it became evident that I would have to turn around due time/weather/supply issues. This road had recently been deactivated and had very big and pronounced cross ditches. These ditches were between two and three feet deep ranging from six to ten feet across. I took these very slowly. One time I landed on the bottom side of my bambie bars, putting a dent into the main support that runs off of the frame and bending the leading edge of the lower skid plate that protects the relay rod, actuator, inner shaft, &c.. Later when I was climbing out of a particularly bad one I heard and felt a rather loud clunk-bang, followed by a terrible dragging sound from the back. I was truly alarmed and was not thinking logically but considering how far I would have to walk. I got out of the van recollecting that the way the van stopped was because I took my foot off of the accelerator and onto the brake. This was confirmed when I saw my spare tyre lying back by the ditch and realised that the terrible dragging sound was the spare's cradle. I discovered a profound sense of relief as I replaced my spare and made doubly sure I tightened the cradle bolt well.

At no time did I ground out on anything between my axles.

After I replaced my spare I turned around and went back whence I came, which meant doing all the ditches again. There must have been around twenty or so big ditches. This time I did it better.... smiles.

I think a LWB L400 might have had issues on this road, SWB L400? Not sure ~ could probably do it with a lift. Remember, I've not driven an L400, just looked at them.

The L300 and L400 are completely different vehicles. They don't share much.

Pretty much all they share are the names and maybe the paint codes.


Regarding the braking: I might add to Green1's observations as well as supplementing my previous comments, that with the L300 torsion bar system, when you lock the brakes the whole weight of the van (2,350Kg) "bows before the emperor" and digs right in. Which is why the van appears to stop in a shorter distance than most vehicles I have driven, like 15 feet shorter. The down side to this is the brakes must be properly tuned or the van has a tendency to pull to one side.

Falco.

[Green1]

I think a LWB L400 might have had issues on this road, SWB L400? Not sure ~ could probably do it with a lift. Remember, I've not driven an L400, just looked at them.

Hard to say, it sounds like the better approach angle on the L400 might have been a big advantage on that particular road.
regardless though, we can easilly nit-pick specific examples where either one of the vehicles has an advantage over the other one, that doesn't make either one "better" or "worse" overall, or even "better" or "worse" for offroading, just "better" or "worse" on that one specific occasion.

As was pointed out, these vehicles are very different, both very capable, but personal preference will make a big difference.

[Nomis]

Hey guys,
thanks to all of you for the detailed info. It's really a help.

I do see that they are very different vehicles, but obviously we are here on this forum with both of them for a reason.
They are both awesome rides! (with the "Delica" 4x4 format.)
They both have things other vehicles don't, and to each other are more similar than others compared.
does that make sense?

anyway, you answered all my questions. thanks!

[paddyb]

Green1: "From my experience so far, the L400 has slightly worse fuel economy than the L300 did, though signifigantly more power. (approximately 12L/100km instead of 11L/100km)"

In Taiwan you can get both the L300 and L400 with the 2.4L engine. Will they have the same gas mileage or is the L400 just heavier?

Also, you say the L400 has more power - is that because of the drivetrain or because you are comparing the 2.5 Diesel to the 2.4 petrol?

Sorry, I should ask these questions on a Taiwan Delica forum but I don't know Chinese!

[mararmeisto]

Green1: "From my experience so far, the L400 has slightly worse fuel economy than the L300 did, though signifigantly more power. (approximately 12L/100km instead of 11L/100km)"

In Taiwan you can get both the L300 and L400 with the 2.4L engine. Will they have the same gas mileage or is the L400 just heavier?

Also, you say the L400 has more power - is that because of the drivetrain or because you are comparing the 2.5 Diesel to the 2.4 petrol?

Sorry, I should ask these questions on a Taiwan Delica forum but I don't know Chinese!

There are very few 2.4 petrol Delicas over here, so the usual comparisons of L400 to L300 wrt to power (120hp to 85hp) or weight (~2100kg to ~1900kg) or fuel economy (slightly less for a heavier vehicle with a bigger displacement) are all diesel related. The numbers I've provided are factual for power (from wikipedia), averages for weight (based on a range of trim levels), and speculation for fuel economy (anecdotal from comments on this forum).

[FalcoColumbarius]

...There are very few 2.4 petrol Delicas over here, so the usual comparisons of L400 to L300 wrt to power (120hp to 85hp) or weight (~2100kg to ~1900kg)....

I am curious about the weight numbers. On the paper work it says 1,800 kg. On the scale, empty, fuel gauge on E and only me in the wagon she weighs 2,350 kg. I don't weigh 550 kg. Is the paper work based on the weight of the frame & drive train? Or do they bracket the numbers? Or do they not pay close enough attention to their job? Or what?

Falco.

[loki]

...There are very few 2.4 petrol Delicas over here, so the usual comparisons of L400 to L300 wrt to power (120hp to 85hp) or weight (~2100kg to ~1900kg)....

I am curious about the weight numbers. On the paper work it says 1,800 kg. On the scale, empty, fuel gauge on E and only me in the wagon she weighs 2,350 kg. I don't weigh 550 kg. Is the paper work based on the weight of the frame & drive train? Or do they bracket the numbers? Or do they not pay close enough attention to their job? Or what?

Falco.

could be a dry weight, no oil in the engine tranny diff and the like, no coolant, maybe no tires. not sure at all though just spit balling.

[fexlboi]

On the paper work it says 1,800 kg. On the scale, empty, fuel gauge on E and only me in the wagon she weighs 2,350 kg. I don't weigh 550 kg.

Either you have somewhere hidden load or you really weigh 550kg
Last time we went with Dino on the scale we had 2.410kg. (2 people, full camping gear, roof rack full, fuel gauge half)

[mararmeisto]

From what I've seen there are something like ten different trim levels (each) of these two different vehicles, and those estimated weights are probably going to be the dry weights. (N.B. weight information came from wikipedia and the two owner's manuals I've seen).

Again, the L400 is a newer vehicle with a bigger engine with a longer wheelbase, so I would expect it to weigh more. More weight, poorer fuel economy.