Welcome to the "Last Word Café".

[glenn]

Solonoid,
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - and I'm curious why you think my comments paint me a zealot. Konadog sums up what I was getting at quite nicely. I'm not defending any past or present culture, they all have their flaws. If I was to make any point, it would be that at the present, in the west, we enjoy a standard of living, a level of personal freedom, and safety from violence that is unprecedented in human history. This is something worth celebrating, and nurturing. And I'm not suggesting that we have it right, either. Just that we have a foundation for something better. All of the City-States of the ancient world collapsed quite dramatically, generally as they exhausted their environments. While they all contributed to where we are now, none of them had it right. While they may be interesting footnotes, we have much more to learn from more contemporary cultures.

My thoughts on conspiracy theories are that they are generally the fabrication of intelligent minds, but without academic rigor. The wrong dots get connected. There are enough real problems in the world that need to be addressed

I found your reaction to my last comment unpleasant and I am withdrawing from this thread. I like a good argument now and again, but I see where this is going, and I'm not interested. It takes the fun out of it!

and hey there mr fibble, you must have been writing your last comment at the same time as me - uncanny.

[solanoid]

huh,

Well what I find unpeasant is people who disrespect others cultures, insulting their beleifs and rituals. Glenn, your condescending tone speaks for itself...self-rightchous & arrogant
"not much to admire" / "more to learn from contemporary cultures" thats pretty degrading to a civilization that unlocked the secrets to the cosmos without any wheels, or telescopes. But hey, we fixed em' they sure arent barbarians anymore. BTW do you know where all that south american gold went? thats an interesting story.

Mr Feeble,
Once again I dont think your following me, I consider "modern civilization" to have originated about 0001ad (this is the foundation for our society)
Sure in recent years we dont have sacraficial deaths, and public executions, we dont need to massacre the innocent with weapons. All we need to do is institute tarrifs and sanctions on anyone who doesent conform, why bloody our clean hands when we can simply starve nations of their resources and deny them any assistance....thats @#$%&$ civilized
plus we do it with a smile, a nice suit, and handshake

[Mr. Flibble]

huh,

Mr Feeble,
Once again I dont think your following me, I consider "modern civilization" to have originated about 0001ad (this is the foundation for our society)
Sure in recent years we dont have sacraficial deaths, and public executions, we dont need to massacre the innocent with weapons. All we need to do is institute tarrifs and sanctions on anyone who doesent conform, why bloody our clean hands when we can simply starve nations of their resources and deny them any assistance....thats @#$%&$ civilized
plus we do it with a smile, a nice suit, and handshake

I notice how you apparently misspelled my nickname in an attempt to be humorous or condescending. Do you have a specific need to try to ridicule everyone on a personal level who disagrees with your point of view?

If you are suggesting that Tariffs and Trade barriers are harmful (particularly to African Farmers) I would agree with you. I make no claims that modern society is perfect. However, you cannot argue that it is not better now than it was before. As the standard of living increases for a populace, murder and other crimes decline. Thus, as the economy improves for everyone, things get better for everyone.

Changes in society take time. They can take generations to propagate, it is not a fast process. However, I believe that the world is slowly becoming a better place as time goes on.

[solanoid]

well I certainly hope so, this we can agree upon.

To All,

I have not come here to aggravate others or to make enemies, I hope that at the end of the day we could put our differences asside and be delica bros.
I am sorry that I get a bit worked up at times, I am a passionate person. The problem (one of) with society today is that many of us are too timid to speak up for what they beleive. Even if you think I am a fool, I will ALWAYS speak my mind, and I urge you to do the same! weather its here or in the real world.

All the best,
Sincerely,
Aaron

[Einstein]

Whoa!!!!!!!!!! well now it is called the LAST WORD CAFE isnt it...........Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! one thread that maybe dosnt belong in this wonderful deli world...

[Mr. Flibble]

well I certainly hope so, this we can agree upon.

To All,

I have not come here to aggravate others or to make enemies, I hope that at the end of the day we could put our differences asside and be delica bros.
I am sorry that I get a bit worked up at times, I am a passionate person. The problem (one of) with society today is that many of us are too timid to speak up for what they beleive. Even if you think I am a fool, I will ALWAYS speak my mind, and I urge you to do the same! weather its here or in the real world.

All the best,
Sincerely,
Aaron

Ah, but we are all fools at heart!

Believe me, you are not the only one guilty of this!

[solanoid]

Alright,

I propose a truce...for now

[Golf Cart]

Whoa!!!!!!!!!! well now it is called the LAST WORD CAFE isnt it...........Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! one thread that maybe dosnt belong in this wonderful deli world...

True Dat,

Its like watching a Yahoo chat room on Valium.

24 pages later and I still think Vegemite makes a better roof patch

[FalcoColumbarius]

It does not cause me much alarm because it is a correlation vs. causation situation. At some point we are going to have different calendars that end on different dates come together. After all, there are lots of calendars around. As for the 2012 Calendar, it rolls over just like any other.

More detail here:
http://archaeology.about.com/b/2010/03/ ... 12-faq.htm
(That article references my friend Marc Zender, and links to some of his work at Harvard)

But, I remember the bible prophecy that said that the Rapture was coming in 1988 - it was based on one of the best selling books of the 1970s - but everyone forgets about that. Or, that there was going to be a massive flood in London over the heights of all the buildings, that was in the 1700s I believe. (I can't remember the event terminology to look up the proper date).

There are always disaster predictions like this, but my concern is that they are based on specious evidence. If you take a bunch of similar happenings and link them all together you can come up with a similar prediction for almost anything.

My favorite example is shown in the following quote by Richard P. Feynman:

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

What does that license plate mean? Nothing. And that is the point. We only notice license plates or things that have a supposed meaning to us - if we don't find meaning in little things like that we ignore them. It is similar to how you always see Delica's on the road when you are out driving. But how often do you see every Ford Taurus or Jeep Cherokee? You don't notice those as much because you don't drive them.

Our brains notice patterns and seek those patterns out. So, if you look for conspiracy theories or ideas, you will find them wherever you look.

Personally, I find that type of thought rather dangerous.

Okey..... I go out and toy with my trailer and I see I need to catch up here.... Ehem....

So, let's start with the license plate in the car park scenario. We are not talking about coming into the car park and seeing ARW 357... of course that is not unique by any standard. What we are talking about is coming into the car park and seeing three license plates with ARW 357, one from BC, One from the Yukon and one from Quebec ~ and they're all lined up in a row. If I saw that I would take note: Could it be by chance? That's possible. Could it be somehow arranged? Probably more likely ~ even if it was chance that they happened to be there but decided to park next to one and other like Delicas.

All I'm saying is three ancient calendars from three different places ending at the same time... Not ending in the same century but the same year and the solar system is lining up at the same time... You bet I see a pattern there. I also see a pattern when I look at my engine... co-incidence? Perhaps all the parts of my engine just arrived together by chance at the same time but I am more likely going with intelligent design on that one.

I am not saying that the Earth is going to blow up because these calendars correlate but it tells me that there might be a reason for this "phenomenon".

Regarding the Bible Prophesy: Are you referring to Revelations? If so ~ early on into Revelations, Saint John The Divine clearly states that this event is going to take place during his lifetime.

There are many hoaxes out there, I am with you on this point. However we should not "throw the baby out with the bath water" just because the water is very dirty. These hoaxes, I might add, are not new ~ scams have been going on since the dawn of whatever.

When my wife (at the time) was pregnant with my son... I was absolutely amazed at how many pregnant women were in London that year ~ I understand that it was on my plate and I was more aware of it when in fact there was probably just as many pregnant women in London that year as the year before or the year after. I am also aware that when people are in dire straits they look for something to blame, which is often how conspiracy theories hatch. But I also know that where you have people you have politics and where there is politics there is the potential for conspiring.

I agree fully completely with you on the point of finding what one looks for ~ "seek and thee shall find" ~ it's called the "Law Of Attraction" but when the core columns all fall down at 56 foot (trailer) lengths and cut at consistent angles with thermite residue all over the place... well you need to ask yourself "am I drawing conclusions into this or is it really a pattern due to intelligent design?"

Now, back to 2012. Does it mean the end times because three ancient calendars are coming to an end? Not necessarily. Could it mean that? Perhaps. Should I rule it out because there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there? I wouldn't do that. Could the three calendars be "rolling over" together? Absolutely, that is a very plausible concept. In fact the planetary alignment could be the tumblers clicking over. The question is why?

Falco.

[DelicaDJ]

This debate is getting goood! I need some popcorn & peanuts, & maybe an ice cold Canada Dry!!

[FalcoColumbarius]

And one more thing regarding:

Our brains notice patterns and seek those patterns out. So, if you look for conspiracy theories or ideas, you will find them wherever you look.

Personally, I find that type of thought rather dangerous.

To quote Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

Falco.

[glenn]

With all this talk of Delica drivers as "open minded free thinkers" I wonder if there are any other Ubuntu users out there? Instead of constantly complaining about the powers that be - the reality is that we are absolutely complicit in the way things are today - especially in our consumer habits and how they effect political reality, and the lives of people outside north america. In fact, I think we all know that economics are a bigger driver in today's global reality than classic politics.

So take a look at electronics. I personally have finally left apple behind
Why switch to Ubuntu? When Macs are so great!
1) The number one reason is poor corporate ethics. Any content that you legally purchase from the itunes store, for your ipad, iphone, ipod can not be moved to another platform without breaking the software locks.
2). The whole "app" environment discourages and stifles competition - and I'm not just talking macs here. What makes the internet great is the fact that no one controls it. Anyone can produce content, and any small upstart developers can hang up their shingle and join in. These newly emerging, platform specific environments are very highly controlled, expensive and yes, censored by large corporate interests. I want a digital life that is more open, not more restricted. How many of your apps do you actually need anyway?
3.) Coltan. Google it! It is used in virtually all electronics, by all manufacturers - cellphones, computers, games. It comes from the Congo. The human rights atrocities surrounding its production are appalling. As a consumer, I cannot dismiss my complicity in the market for this blood mineral. Small though my protest is, I have vowed not to buy any new electronics that contain this mineral until the human rights abuses related to its mining are addressed.

This all points me to Ubuntu. It is an open sourced, community based Linux operating system, that does not have inherent restrictions imposed by the producer. It also does not have obsolescence built into its fundamental corporate model. This means I was able to buy a computer that cost almost $4000 4 years ago for about $300 today, and use it for everything I need. To top it all off, the operating system, and all the software, including analogues for all popular applications are totally free. Tech support is free. Applications are backwards compatible.

I have a very active digital life; in fact, my livelihood depends on it. I am relatively tech savvy. However, I have lost my techno-lust. The life cycle of most consumer electronics is far too short, and we are paying a huge human and environmental price for this designed obsolescence. For me, it is all about the content, and not the gadget. Besides, I'm getting bored with Apple's aesthetic.

Remember this everytime you pull your electronic device out of your pocket - someone suffered to produce it, and you provide the market for it.

http://www.freegeekvancouver.org

[konadog]

All of the City-States of the ancient world collapsed quite dramatically, generally as they exhausted their environments. While they all contributed to where we are now, none of them had it right. While they may be interesting footnotes, we have much more to learn from more contemporary cultures.

I can't quite agree with this Glenn - All cultures and societies and civilizations are expressions of the human experience and have something to teach us. It's not fair to relegate any to footnote status. Like I said above, I think Cortes and the Spanish conquistadors were brutes of the highest order, but so were the people running the Aztec bureaucracy, but both were pretty much standard expressions human behaviours. IMO, the worst thing the Spanish did was burn all the Aztec history books - what a sad loss for all humanity. The things we could have learned from those books! Different ideas and takes on life and the universe are fascinating and all are worthy of study and understanding.

Solanoid - Great to see that you stood back a little and apologized for getting over-the-top - nicely done. Remember an argument isn't a fight, but rather an exchange of ideas which, hopefully, will lead both sides to greater understanding and knowledge. Name calling and belittling an opponent does nothing to further the discussion.
Now, where were we...

[konadog]

1) The number one reason is poor corporate ethics. Any content that you legally purchase from the itunes store...can not be moved to another platform without breaking the software loc

They haven't done that for some time now - buy a song or album from itunes and it's yours to do what you want with...

[solanoid]

Glenn,

A bit off topic, but a good post. I see where you are coming from and I agree.
For those of you who resist the conspiracies, perhaps you will be interested in "internet 2"
When internet 2 comes out, you wont have to listen to anyone babbling about conspiracies because that sort of info will be resticted. If we were to have a discussion on a subject that is frowned upon, we get shut down, this censorship will get censored, no one will know (or care)
Alex Jones is a strange fellow, but he knows his stuff when it comes to "far fetched conspiracies" he is already having his blogs and sites removed from the web. Funny how they would shut him out seeing how he is a crack pot, and has no idea what he is talking about.
One of the main objectives of the new world order is to strip us of our fights and freedoms, as they have already done Im many regards.

PATTERNS!?.....yeah I see em'