lack of power black smoke. Help!

[Manitoba deli]

I would have to agree with psilosin, but my opinion is only based on my experiences as a diesel mechanic of 20 plus years, it is not based on something I read. And as far as I can tell, the turbo's on the l400's have a wastegate. Unless it has been renamed. Perhaps I should start reading more and spend less time working on diesel engines.

Jason

[Green1]

I would have to agree with psilosin, but my opinion is only based on my experiences as a diesel mechanic of 20 plus years, it is not based on something I read. And as far as I can tell, the turbo's on the l400's have a wastegate. Unless it has been renamed. Perhaps I should start reading more and spend less time working on diesel engines.

I used to talk about the wastegate too... I have been corrected on the wastegate issue on this site before, it's a pressure release valve, not a wastegate.

As for what you do, or don't, think is correct... well... you're flat out wrong... These vehicles behave differently at different altitudes. This has been proven on multiple vehicles.

As for your experience, I trust Mardy and CVI over you, I also trust my own personal experience of ACTUALLY HAVING DEALT WITH THIS over any number of people who might not be able to wrap their heads around it.

I have had this exact problem, I have solved this exact problem, I am so far the ONLY person who has posted a simple proven solution to the exact problem reported.

[Manitoba deli]

My l400's have a pressure relief on the intake manifold, and a wastegate on the exhaust side of the turbo. If any one needs a copy of the service manual for either the l300 or the l400, send me a PM and I will burn a copy for you. This is one document I have read.

Jason

[psilosin]

I used to talk about the wastegate too... I have been corrected on the wastegate issue on this site before, it's a pressure release valve, not a wastegate.

OMG who cares what you want to call it on your Delica, the concept of turbo function and the effect of pressurized air from a turbo remains exactly as I stated earlier.

11psi may be 11psi, but you don't have all 11psi all the time.

You just do not get it. Do you really not understand how a turbo functions to compress air and how a boost compensator functions to alter fuel delivery based on changing boost level amounts. Why are you so hung up on a static number...I knew you would be as soon as I used a number value. Its irrelevent what psi value you are talking about from 0.0001 to whatever your turbo's max is set at, what matters is that the turbo will make that same boost at sea level or on the top of a mountain...its function is unaffected by altitude. Therefore, its requirement for fuel is also unaffected by altitude (when boost is > 0psi). Its only when the engine is off boost at altitude that it will have too much fuel so you may get minor smoke until boost builds so for emmissions you could adjust the basal fuel delivery rate so it wouldn't smoke in off boost situations.

You are trying to make a very simple problem sound complicated and expensive, it isn't.

No like usual you are making a conclusion from nowhere. I'm just saying that your solution that less fuel creates more power defies the laws of physics and logic so might not be the solution. Enviroimports EGR theory makes a lot more sense. Blocking the EGR is pretty much free...how is that complicated and expensive??

I have been through this for myself three times on three different vehicles, and on another member's delica once, I know what I'm talking about here. Just because it doesn't make sense to you personally doesn't mean it is wrong.

True just because it doesn't make sence doesn't mean its not true but your comments would actualy mean more if it was actually you that performed the adjustment and if you would actually show what adjustment was done...instead of just calling it 'the adjustment'. Are you sure it was really an adjustment that reduced fueling? If so please explain how simply supplying less fuel creates more power. If you can show how, then that would be awesome. Hell if you can show how less fuel equals more power I am going to disconnet my fuel lines completely...then it should increase power by 100000%.

[Green1]

I used to talk about the wastegate too... I have been corrected on the wastegate issue on this site before, it's a pressure release valve, not a wastegate.

OMG who cares what you want to call it on your Delica, the concept of turbo function and the effect of pressurized air from a turbo remains exactly as I stated earlier.

What you call it is irrelevant, what it DOES is relevant, and they do two completely different things, if you can't understand how a turbo works you should quit trying to teach everyone else.

11psi may be 11psi, but you don't have all 11psi all the time.

You just do not get it. Do you really not understand how a turbo functions to compress air and how a boost compensator functions to alter fuel delivery based on changing boost level amounts. Why are you so hung up on a static number...I knew you would be as soon as I used a number value. Its irrelevent what psi value you are talking about from 0.0001 to whatever your turbo's max is set at, what matters is that the turbo will make that same boost at sea level or on the top of a mountain...its function is unaffected by altitude. Therefore, its requirement for fuel is also unaffected by altitude (when boost is > 0psi). Its only when the engine is off boost at altitude that it will have too much fuel so you may get minor smoke until boost builds so for emmissions you could adjust the basal fuel delivery rate so it wouldn't smoke in off boost situations.

*I* don't get it??? you're the one who thinks that compressing a smaller amount of air by the same amount will magically give you the same pressure as a larger volume (this IS what we're talking about.... you are also pig headedly insisting that the turbo ALWAYS operates at max boost with the pressure relief valve bleeding off extra boost, when in fact it does no such thing. your understanding of the turbo, and of turbo diesels in general is laughably poor.

Blocking the EGR is pretty much free...how is that complicated and expensive??

how does the EGR valve work fine at sea level, but not at altitude? there is no altitude dependent component to it.

if you would actually show what adjustment was done...instead of just calling it 'the adjustment'. Are you sure it was really an adjustment that reduced fueling?

I'm sorry, if you who know absolutely everything there is to know about turbo diesel engines, didn't know that adjusting the fuel mix involved turning an adjustment screw...

If so please explain how simply supplying less fuel creates more power. If you can show how, then that would be awesome. Hell if you can show how less fuel equals more power I am going to disconnet my fuel lines completely...then it should increase power by 100000%.

By your logic we should skip putting air in to the engine because a cylinder full of pure fuel would give maximum power.
It doesn't.
It's a mix, too much fuel, or too little fuel BOTH give less power, you need optimum air-fuel mix to create optimum power.
The problem this person has is too much fuel, and not enough air, the excess fuel doesn't burn, so it impedes the combustion of the rest of the fuel, it also displaces the air that should be mixed with the fuel, and leaves soot all over everything, it also creates large volumes of black smoke.


If you want to learn how a turbo works, or how a diesel engine works, feel free, but until you have some basic understanding of these things please stop criticizing someone who has dealt with this specific issue when you don't know anything about it!

[psilosin]

*I* don't get it??? you're the one who thinks that compressing a smaller amount of air by the same amount will magically give you the same pressure as a larger volume (this IS what we're talking about.... you are also pig headedly insisting that the turbo ALWAYS operates at max boost with the pressure relief valve bleeding off extra boost, when in fact it does no such thing. your understanding of the turbo, and of turbo diesels in general is laughably poor.

Do you even read before responding...never once have I said that turbos always operate at max psi...what I said was every turbo easily can reach its max psi regardless of altitude. And your understanding of the physical properties of gases is ridiculous...regardless of the starting volume of air your turbo compresses it to the SAME density regardless of altitude. At altitude the same amount of molecules that make up 'air' take up a larger volume...but to be compressed to say 5psi the same amount of molecules have to be compressed together as they do at sea level. At high altitude the turbo has to intake a larger volume of air obviously and spin a little harder to do it but it has no problem doing that so the amount of O2 your engine is getting per intake charge at any psi > 0 is the same regardless of ambient air density from altitude differences. You are as sharp as a bowling ball.

I'm sorry, if you who know absolutely everything there is to know about turbo diesel engines, didn't know that adjusting the fuel mix involved turning an adjustment screw...

I do not know everything about diesels at all but it looks like I know a hell of a lot more than you. But its not me that has to do the adjustment. Why not be helpful to the other guy. Some useful tips like how much of a turn to start with on which adjustment screw/bolt. Does your IP only have a single overall fuel adjustment? Mine has multiple, and also has adjustable boost ramps and adjustable pre-load on teh diaphram in the boost compensator to alter the dy/dx of fuel delivery over the boost range...but you don't understand any of that do you Mr. Wikipedia. If he does have to adjust anything it sounds more like he would want to adjust the pre-boost fuel delivery to limit any smoking at idle rather than simply lower the fuel delivery across the board.

how does the EGR valve work fine at sea level, but not at altitude? there is no altitude dependent component to it.

Um maybe it has just stated to malfunction...irregardless of elevation. It a good thing to try before messing with your IP. Also he stated that the power loss and smoke got worse over time not instantly.

if you can't understand how a turbo works you should quit trying to teach everyone else.

Some advice you should also definately heed. kiss kiss...until next time sweet cheeks!

[Mr. Flibble]

Now now, lets not bicker and argue over 'ooh killed 'ooh. This is supposed to be a HAPPY occasion!

Lets see if we can't get "on the road" problem fixed!

[Green1]

regardless of the starting volume of air your turbo compresses it to the SAME density

So, in a vacum it will still get you full PSI? wow... they really are magic! They compress by a ratio, not a fixed number, they can't make volume out of nothing! if they don't have sea level air, they won't output sea level boost, they can't, the laws of physics are against them.

the turbo has to intake a larger volume of air obviously and spin a little harder to do it but it has no problem doing that

really? so where does it magically GET this extra air, you're driving at the same speed, the air goes through the same air filter, and the same ducts, it has no more to work with. And how does it spin harder? it spins as a factor of the exhaust gas passing through it, more exhaust, faster spin, less exhaust, less spin. it doesn't get extra exhaust pressure from being higher up.

You are as sharp as a bowling ball.

I'm not the one saying that Delica turbos ignore the laws of physics...

turbos are a very simple machine, it's 2 fans coupled together, one on the exhaust, one on the intake, the turbo has no way to regulate what pressure it gives, it just gives what it can, if it has too much the pressure release valve releases it (LOUDLY)
So if you aren't hearing your pressure release valve you haven't maxed out the boost. so what makes you think it makes a magic special PSI number? it can't, it just works as a ratio. More dense air in, more dense air out. thinner air in, thinner air out. There's no way for it to magically know it's supposed to spin faster and harder because of a different amount of pressure coming in, nor can it because it's source of propulsion (the exhaust gas) isn't pushing it any harder.

[psilosin]

So, in a vacum it will still get you full PSI? wow... they really are magic!

There is no air in a vacumn so there is nothing to compress. What a silly question??? Where did that come from and whats the point??? That has nothing at all to do with the discussion of compressing air molecules together. Do you think at high altitudes like Calgary it is a vacumn like outer space? Maybe that why you are such a dullard...brain depleted of O2?

They compress by a ratio, not a fixed number, they can't make volume out of nothing!

No they do not compress as a ratio...they compress to a measurable unit of pressure...maybe you missed it the other few times I said it...psi is not a ratio or a variable unit...it is a scaled unit of measure just like temperature...10oC is 10oC regadless where you are...x psi is x psi regardless where you are.

if they don't have sea level air, they won't output sea level boost, they can't, the laws of physics are against them.

wrong. laws of physics...really...intellectual suicide dropping that card was...

really? so where does it magically GET this extra air, you're driving at the same speed, the air goes through the same air filter, and the same ducts, it has no more to work with. And how does it spin harder? it spins as a factor of the exhaust gas passing through it, more exhaust, faster spin, less exhaust, less spin. it doesn't get extra exhaust pressure from being higher up.

turbos are a very simple machine, it's 2 fans coupled together, one on the exhaust, one on the intake, the turbo has no way to regulate what pressure it gives, it just gives what it can, if it has too much the pressure release valve releases it (LOUDLY)
So if you aren't hearing your pressure release valve you haven't maxed out the boost. so what makes you think it makes a magic special PSI number? it can't, it just works as a ratio. More dense air in, more dense air out. thinner air in, thinner air out. There's no way for it to magically know it's supposed to spin faster and harder because of a different amount of pressure coming in, nor can it because it's source of propulsion (the exhaust gas) isn't pushing it any harder.

Your line of thinking is flawed as a result of your misunderstanding of how the turbos and wastegates functions. Its actually quite simple how a turbo is able to 'spin faster' at higher altitude to scavange a higher volume of intake air at a certain engine speed/rpm than it does at sea level. Only thing you might notice is longer lag period to build the initial pressure. But until you understand the function of the turbo wastegate you just won't get it. BTW on looking at pictures that Pressure Relief Valve you are always talking about...that looks more like a safety backup in case your wastegate does malfunction and you end up in an over boost situation...esp considering where it is located and how you describe it making a infrequent/periodic venting sounds not inside the exhaust . You really make it hard not to think of you as a complete idiot. Maybe someone with more patience can school you. Now you know (that you know nothing)...and knowing is half the battle.

Once again the two of us are leading this thread in an alternate direction, so bye bye sweet cheeks, I had my way with you and now I'm moving on...but we'll always have Paris.

[Green1]

Ok,I'm done trying to explain how this thing works to an idiot,

Simply put, the turbo can't compress what isnt' there.
These vehicles don't have a wastegate
Even if they did, it wouldn't help

Your understanding of physics is non-existant
Your understanding of Turbo diesels is worse.

I have explained what this person's problem is, it's the same as one I have dealt with before.

You have explaind that it can't be, based on flawed logic and impossibilities, I can't convince you, because you refuse to admit that the universe follows the laws of physics.

I'm done.

If the original poster wants to learn how to solve his problem, he can PM me.
If he wants to throw money away on solutions that won't work, he can follow your advice.

[psilosin]

Ok,I'm done trying to explain how this thing works to an idiot,

Yeah you probably shouldn't talk to yourself...thats weird.

If he wants to throw money away on solutions that won't work, he can follow your advice.

Blocking the EGR...thats free. I didn't give that advice though, that was enviroimports...a creditable source, unlike you.

[Green1]

If he wants to throw money away on solutions that won't work, he can follow your advice.

Blocking the EGR...thats free. I didn't give that advice though, that was enviroimports...a creditable source, unlike you.

The adjustment I'm talking about is free, and comes from CVI and Mardy, two of the three most credible delica sources in Canada.
It is also the ONLY solution that has a proven track record for fixing the specific problem in the original post.

[psilosin]

The adjustment I'm talking about is free, and comes from CVI and Mardy, two of the three most credible delica sources in Canada.
It is also the ONLY solution that has a proven track record for fixing the specific problem in the original post

Yes he has nothing to loose (but optimum power) by trying it so he might as well, but your explanations of why it should work have been ridiculous. Once again, since you didn't actually do the 'adjustment' yourself...are you sure it was it just the overall fuel delivery setting that was lowered, thats it thats all nothing else was touched?...YES or NO? Just provide a 'yes' or 'no' or 'I don't know' answer to that question and I'll stop posting.

Up to now all you have 'explained' is that you understand almost nothing about turbos, wastegates, boost compensators and the physics and mechanics and interactions involved and have posted piles of false information here as a result. You should really do yourself a favour and do a bit more research on the topic...even if it is from that place you like...ugh...wikipedia. When you post false information its not just you it can hurt...think of the chirldren.

[tonydca]

For the OP; while the lower air pressure will have an impact on your performance (see below) I doubt that it would be extreme enough to cause the horrific problems you seem to be having. Less so for a turbo-charged engine than a normally aspirated one.

The usual cold start and pump timing problems have already been mentioned by jfarsang, JDM, et al - I have noticed threads on other sites that claim fuel additives in colder climes might be different to those here on the Wet Coast - might be another minor factor? I'm not from Calgary so I don't know for sure,,,

As to the operation of the systems on the Delica - here we go!:

The L400s have both an integrated wastegate on the turbo (in the exhaust stream) and a pressure-relief poppet valve on the rear of the intake manifold.

As the turbo spins up, there is a pressure line which runs from the compressed-air/output side of the turbo to a little diaphragm actuator. Once the pressure inside the diaphragm reaches approx. 11 psi (more on that later...), a spring inside the diaphragm compresses enough to move a rod running to a valve (the "wastegate") on the exhaust side of the turbo. Opening the wastegate dumps excess exhaust gasses straight into the exhaust pipe, bypassing the turbo impeller, and preventing it from spinning faster and generating still more boost pressure.

Adding washers on front of this actuator essentially increases the amount of distance the rod must travel before the wastegate opens. This translates into more spring compression inside the diaphragm, which means higher pressure before it opens the wastegate. This is apparently a common method for increasing boost pressure, although I am too chicken to try .

The pressure-relief poppet valve on the intake manifold is a backup safety mechanism designed to open at a slightly higher pressure than the wastegate (around 13 psi) in the event that the wastegate malfunctions. Those crazy Aussies (and others )who dial their boost up to ludicrous levels with the washer-method typically weld- or clamp-shut this poppet valve to permit the higher pressure. Mine was gummed up with crap and not sealing properly, limiting my boost but not causing me clouds of smoke since the pressure compensator on the fuel pump (also fed by a line from the output of the turbo) was getting an accurate reading of my (low) pressure and metering out the right amount of fuel. Loss of power, but no smoke.

As to the magical 11 psi number and the repercussions of altitude: (time for some hair-splitting!)

At 3500 feet (roughly Calgary's elevation) air pressure is normally 12.9 psi as opposed to the 14.7 psi we enjoy here in Vancouver. 1.8 fewer psi means roughly 12% less oxygen in the air at this altitude, so one can expect a comparable drop in performance at altitude for a normally-aspirated engine. If fuel delivery is based solely on engine speed, then you will be getting 12% too much fuel, running rich. How much smoke this will make on its own, I can't say.

The turbo wastegate is technically-speaking opening at 11 psig regardless of altitude, where the "g" is "Greater than ambient pressure". So our turbocharged engines will be fed in vancouver at 14.7+11 = 25.7psi, while in Calgary it will be 12.9+11 = 23.9 psi. Now the 1.8 psi drop in ambient atmospheric pressure becomes a 7% drop in O2 concentration at full turbo output, so less of an effect.

I believe that in the abscence of a fancy altitude-compensation mechanism you will always get less power in Calgary than Vancouver, but nothing too horrible. Granted, when the engine is starting, cold or hot, the turbo is not spooled up, so altitude would have more of an effect, but I can't envision great plumes of pollution unless there was something else wrong.

But as my sister likes to say - "But hey - what do I know"...

Now you two shake and make up

[Manitoba deli]

I agree with tonydca for the most part, except for the part about there being a few percent less oxygen in the air after it is compressed. The atmospheric pressure is just a starting point. once the air is compressed to 11psi by the turbo, it has the same content of oxygen as 11 psi air anywhere.(Vancouver may actualy have less oxygen due to smog). The turbo simply works a little longer in higher altitudes before the wastegate opens. philosin is bang on with his explination. green1 may need some oxygen. If you fill a tire with 30psi in Vancouver, and another one with 30psi on Mount Everest, both will have the same amount of oxygen.(providing air quality is the same) Can't remember every thing from high school, but I think there is about 21% oxygen in the air, but what ever % it is , at 11 psi you will have the same amount of oxygen no matter where you are(again providing air quality is equal)

Jason