Let's Talk In Knots!

[jwfchase]

Thus far I see the main contributors have been either Maritime or SAR, which I presume is some sort of rescue organisation (Search And Rescue?). One comment:

Another disadvantage of the bowline is that if you tie it incorrectly with the running end terminating on the ouside

I find this point inconclusive because if you tie any knot incorrectly it will be compromised.

Very true. My point is that an incorrectly tied 8 is easy to spot at a glance, while an incorrectly tied bowline can look very nearly identical to a properly tied one.

Also one other comment referred to the Maritime use of the Bowline as perhaps a "tradition", in which context to me suggested that SAR was a professional operation that dealt with saving lives ~ where the Maritime industry was perhaps a "tradition". Then it occurred to me that the professional SAR operation was maybe 50 years old, definitely not older than Canada. Where the Maritime industry has assuredly been in life and death situations for well over 4,000 years and has tied more knots than any & every living soul has had their knickers in.

Also true! I have no doubt that a bowline is a very strong knot and very useful. Industrial rope rescue is still being developed, so much so that in the 7 years I have been with Fire&Rescue, and the two years of Search&Rescue rope team before that- the "rules" have changed over and over and back again, even in that brief amount of time. (One constant has been using the fig8 family of knots for nearly everything)

My old man was RN and knew a hell of a lot of knots. He used to splice all our lines when we lived on a boat. He used to make Monkey Fists for heaving lines. Word of advice to all you kids out there: Never tell you father that you are bored if he is Navy. The one knot he drove into me was the bowline as a safety measure as well as all round good knot. Tying the added hitch on the running end couldn't hurt, to be sure.

Falco.

We stick to the KISS principle- we learn as few knots as possible! A lot of the amazing things mariners can do with lines, we do with pre-made hardware.

[jwfchase]

I am going to go with Green 1 on this one. When I did my SAR Rope Rescue training they pointed out that part of the bends on the bowline were technically tighter than that of the Figure 8. SAR training was anal enough that when you tied in with a figure 8 follow through you had to tie the tail of the figure 8 to the main rope with a double overhand knot to prevent slippage!....

They changed their minds on that one- here in BC anyhow...

Yes, I know a figure 8 won't slip, but not the point, these are SAR rules we are talking about. You could never use anything made of aluminum, everything had to be steel. No dynamic ropes allowed - only static. 2 ropes for each team member on a line!....

Also changed, the steel is used for durability (especially if you drop hardware) but as long as the piece of gear meets the load reqs, it's OK, the dynamic ropes-- well that would be scary-- imagine pulling on a raising system and having nothing move until you "stretched the elastic" far enough and SPROING!!! And we do still use two ropes, but not for every person- we use 2 person loads (600lbs)

The redundancy built into all that stuff was insane. ....

That's still true! We do all our calculations based on an individual weighing 300lbs and built for 2-person loads, and then use a minimum 10:1 safety factor, so basically the weakest, puniest part of a system still has to meet a 6000lb minimum breaking strength. If you consider the manufactuerer probably adds a furhter 10:1...

[konadog]

Great thread!

The knots and bends I use in caving, climbing and just generally are:

figure - 8 for loops for rigging cave pitches, and tying bits of ascending kit, and for tying into a climbing harness.

Half hitch Great for securing loads on my trailer. Used to tie the rope to the trailer then weave it over the load and use another half-hitch to tie the rope to a taught span of itself. Easy and quick and handy and it's never hard to undo.

Butterfly Fabulous in-line loop and the only one I ever use. Strong in any direction and easy to tie and untie. We used these in the BC Cave rescue when I took the seminar. Very useful.

Double fisherman's bend The only bend (tying the ends of two ropes together to make one longer length) I ever use and have ever seen used in caving or climbing applications.

bowline We used to use this to make a loop around people's waists as a belay at a short cave entrance pitch where we use a cable ladder with big groups of novices. This is the only time I have ever used a bowline. One handed is the only way I know how to tie one...

And I can tie my shoes too!

:)

[jelbon]

Knot - 1 minute of 1 degree per hour.
Let's really jack this thread.

[jwfchase]

This one works great for joining two ropes of different diameters/construction, or even rope to cable, or rope to chain. Doing the double wrap (step 3 in the diagram) prevents the bend from potentially inverting on itself and coming undone.

. To tie a single sheet or becket bend (Figure 12-14), take a bight in the larger of the two lines. Using the smaller of the two lines, put its end up through the bight. Then put it around the standing part of the larger line first because it will have the strain on it and then around the end of the larger line. Next put the end of the smaller line under its standing part. The strain on the standing part will hold the end. Notice in the double sheet or becket bend that the end of the smaller line goes under its standing part both times.

becket.gif (15.35 KiB) Viewed 4115 times

[FalcoColumbarius]

Nice illustrations, JW. I have no clue what a "Trucker's Hitch" is. Does anyone else have pictures of these knots they are talking about?

Falco.

[Jsq]

Hey Falco,

Here are a couple links on the truckies knot. I'm guessing this is the one you are talking about. You can really cinch down a load with this. Just don't use your good climbing ropes to tie it. A lot of abuse on the pulley action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNWELuXo_bY

http://www.animatedknots.com/truckersrescue/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucker's_hitch

[jwfchase]

The youtube video is a good explanation- at about 1:00 he shows how to make the slipknot loop that acts as the "pulley". Make sure you put in two twists like he does in the video, it makes it WAAAAY easier to untie the slipknot when you are done with it than if you just make a regular slipknot.

I use this to tie down anything and everything from building supplies to delicate racing canoe shells, you have really good control over how much tension you put on your load, including really reefin' on 'er. The tie-offs are important too, and done properly will maintain exactly the amount of tension you put on without loosening off at all.



BTW: that animated knots link posted above looks like a great site!

[konadog]

Prusik loops are pretty cool as well...

[Jsq]

For anyone interested in knots etc. this book is great.

http://www.amazon.ca/Ultimate-Encyclope ... 1844768910

I've had mine for years and still enjoy browsing throught it. The color photos are excellent and they use different colored cord to keep the knots simple. This is the book I used to learn decorative knots like the Turks Head. Use to have turks head knots on everything when I was younger. (now I have kids and bizzare knots in my shoelaces!)