Alcohol-water injection for Turbo diesels Good cheap HP/TQ

[bae146]

So how are you guys going to trigger the water alcohol injection? Are you going to use a switch on the throttle, or hook it up to an egt gauge?

[delicat]

Toggle switch and it's also controlled by boost level...

[Profister]

I picked up the package and will bring it to the meet tonight.

[Meanman]

How the hell did you guys get your kits already? I was the first to order and I still don't have mine......Friggin US mail crap!!

[guamdoc]

If you guys have install questions feel free to ask or ask on our forum.

Be sure to prime the pump prior to connecting to the nozzle assembly

[delicat]

Thanks Guamdoc,

Kit looks really good quality. Main question I have for now is about putting a nozzle pre-turbo. I know you say it's fine with your system but other very similar kit manufacturers don't advise doing it. (spoke to two other companies, they said "bad bad bad idea!") These had pretty much the same high pressure pump and small nozzle. Talking to heavy duty diesel mechanics they also had doubts about putting it before the turbo. On your forum there's people who have done it (don't know if they had issues later on?) and other that again, don't advise it.

So, are you confident that it won't damage a turbo that is in excellent condition to start with? And if it does...?

I bought the dual nozzle kit thinking I'd put it pre-turbo like you advised but now that I have bigger doubts, what would be my second option to put these 2 nozzles? ('Cause I'd doubt you'd warranty my turbo if it failed due to a pre-turbo install.)

Thanks,
David

[delicat]

Seems like everyone is contradicting each others! It's getting annoying at the end.

I'm posting below two decent links. The first one is the best pre-turbo forum discussion I found, it's over 25 pages but very very interesting. Just started reading it but they don't seem to be against pre-turbo in a properly built system.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewto ... bo&start=0

Here's the second link on what another system is saying about pre-turbo injection. Again, similar type of kit (Alcohol injection system) at http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/ ... _info.html:

(I've pasted it, see below).

1. Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection

By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.

How is this possible?

When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.

It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated.

water methanol injectionA turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll.

water methanol injectionAs the compressed air heats up, it tries to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed. Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation.

By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.

All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.

water methanol injectionLastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures. Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency.

While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output. Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the water injection nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.

When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.

water methanol injectionA better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.

One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle.

[guamdoc]

The reason for contradiction is we deal in fact not 36 pages of theory, We have long term testers and were talking years here that have ran pre-turbo injection and have no signs of rotor erosion. The only key to that is high pressure low micron in size mist. We have both and we had our nozzle designed specifically to provide higher atomization than the other brand makers.that's why some of the other kit makers actually use our nozzles and buy them directly from us. The aquamist post is one wiki copy and past or copy and paste from some other forum are another. Not one runs it or has ever run it. It's only second hand info. The aquamist system is unable to hit the psi pressure of our pumps and also one of the reasons it's bad for pre-turbo injection. You'll see around 230psi at the nozzle head with our set up.

[Meanman]

OK....finally received my kit....So lets get to it Guamdoc. Where is the best location for the nozzles? I purchased a dual nozzle set up. Give me the low down.

[guamdoc]

If your running the dual nozzle set up, as I stated before you will need two 1gph nozzles. 1 goes just before the turbo and the other will be right after the intercooler if you have one, if your not intercooled then just before the intake.

If just doing a single 2gph nozzle or 1gph if you wanted less use of fluid but still good cooling and power you'll go just before the intake. You can also see in the photo were to tap the hose for boost pressure, basically the same place you would put a boost gauge. You can also run the 2gph nozzle pre-turbo which would be the max size. Pre-turbo also pretty much eliminates all turbo lag.

[john cook]

ive been following this thread with great interest.

any news.....

[delicat]

A few options as to where we started to mount the pump:
- behind the left front wheel arch, tucked similar to the air filter but opposite side.
- behind the radiator's fan on the left side (above the ac compressor).

Options for the tank:
- behind the radiator's fan on the left side (above the ac compressor).
- in front of the shifters (if no cool/hot box).
- on the rear of the side step for the sliding door. (a 1 gallon plastic fuel container fits nicely or custom tank).

Nozzles:
- on the rubber hose pre-turbo.
- on the metal elbow pre-intake manifold.
- post turbo; remove and block egr with 1/2" aluminum plate and install nozzle on that plate

We've started working on the install last week and will probably get a go at it today. No worries, we'll keep you posted!

David

[delicat]

Just to keep things together...
http://www.delica.ca/forum/water-meth-i ... +injection

[delicat]

Update,

As per my previous post my install and Fexlboi's are complete. And as of now I can't see any difference, not at all! At first I thought the ride was more responsive but must have been my desire more than the fact!

Myself and Jay even installed a on/off toggle switch so that it could be easier to compare. I did a few runs on a long steep hill, checked my final speed, rpm, EGT, time to climb... all identical with or without the system on. Took the van on a long drive this weekend on the hwy, no positive results aside that I burned a gallon of mixture.

I know it's working 'cause it's drinking the mix which consist of a 50-50 mix of water and blue washer fluid.

Next I'll try a 50-50 mix with ethyl alcohol (meth alcohol) and see if it makes a difference.

I guess to see any kind of benefit you need to either have the proper mix, increase your boost or advance your timing but I haven't tried it yet.

Hopefully the claim that it keeps your engine clean will prove positive 'cause that's what I was initially looking for with the extra power as a secondary bonus. But I haven't had the smoke issue in the first week of system use like it's been reported before by other users (engine getting rid of all the crap accumulated). Could be that I cleaned my intake parts when I took them apart (actually, Fexlboi did it for me, thanks!)

And I placed one nozzle just before the turbo and the other one just before the intake manifold and purged the system (opened the line just before the one way valve so might had a foot of line before each nozzle that wasn't purged, issue?).

So here you have it! Maybe Guamdoc will have an answer for me?
Other question that comes to mind:
-What happens when you run out of mixture?

D.

[fexlboi]

All right here are the photos how we installed the injection system: